Volume 39: Number 95
Mon, 15 Nov 2021
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Michael Poppers
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 21:56:36 -0500
Subject: [Avodah] What is mayim achronim (washing hands at the end of
In Avodah V39n94, ProfDrYL wrote:
> In light of the fact that today most people eat most food without ever
touching it with their fingers, it seems to me that this is a strong
reason not to have to wash mayim achronim. <
What would the response be to someone stating, "Because we use washing
machines nowadays and don't manually scrub at the edge of a body of water,
we should no longer refrain from washing clothes during Chol haMoeid"?
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Message: 2
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:22:26 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Is a Teisch or Kumsitz Religiously Significant?
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:08 PM Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> I am not as sure. I think the Rambam's conception of G-d is so
> transcendent, there is no possibility of actual ahavah of Hashem
> Himself. In Yesodei haTorah 2:2 he talks more about love as thirst
> for knowledge ("miyad hu oheiv, umeshabeiach umfaeir umi'saveh ta'avah
> gedolah leida hasheim hagadol"). And his yir'ah is more about awareness
> of our limitation in contrast to the Temim Dei'os.
>
Hilchot Teshuva 10:5 (3 in the printed editions) seems to contradict this
https://mechon-mamre.org/i/1510.htm#5 and the Rambam's language in the
halacha you quoted, as well as the proof text "Sam'a nafshi..." which you
didn't quote, also seem to be on a much more emotional level than thirst
for knowledge. And is "knowledge" an adequate translation of "leida`"? I
think in this context it retains some of its connotations of the most
intimate forms of acquaintance.
Also, I'm not sure if it's accurate to describe the Rambam's derech as
"Aristotelian". Certainly Aristotle is part of the Rambam's intellectual
atmosphere (or the version of Aristotle filtered through Arabic authors),
but I wouldn't call him a defining influence. But that's probably too large
a subject to get into here and I don't know enough about either one or
lehavdil the other.
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:16:10 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Is a Teisch or Kumsitz Religiously Significant?
On Tue, Nov 09, 2021 at 06:22:26PM +0200, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
> Hilchot Teshuva 10:5 (3 in the printed editions) seems to contradict this
> https://mechon-mamre.org/i/1510.htm#5 and the Rambam's language in the
> halacha you quoted, as well as the proof text "Sam'a nafshi..." which you
> didn't quote, also seem to be on a much more emotional level than thirst
> for knowledge....
Does it? Start one halakhah earlier. Ahavah is tied to following the
emes because it is emes. So it seems his passion that you're citing
is indeed an emotional one -- but only expressed in terms of knowledge
*about* G-d. And indeed the Rambam continues in the halakhah after
with a definition of Torah lishmah.
> Also, I'm not sure if it's accurate to describe the Rambam's derech as
> "Aristotelian". Certainly Aristotle is part of the Rambam's intellectual
> atmosphere (or the version of Aristotle filtered through Arabic authors),
> but I wouldn't call him a defining influence...
There are two ways to use the term. I didn't mean he followed
shitas Aristo on everything. But he uses Aristo to frame the whole
discussion. Tzurah vechomer (hylomorphism), the definition of knowledge
as internalization of form (c.f. "information") which leads to the idea
of unity of Knower and Known, the role of intellect in causality and
thus the Rambam's angelology (as well as nidon didan)...
> a subject to get into here and I don't know enough about either one or
> lehavdil the other.
Would the Rambam have agreed to the "lehavdil"?
(In any case, if you don't have the time, you don't have the time. But
the list volume hasn't been overwhelming lately. So the venue isn't a
problem.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp far more than our abilities.
Author: Widen Your Tent - J. K. Rowling
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 14:23:34 -0500
Subject: Re: [Avodah] What is mayim achronim (washing hands at the end
On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 01:29:08PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
>> Q. What is mayim achronim (washing hands at the end of the meal)
>> and is it obligatory?
Something we discussed here in the past is the machloqes between
historians of halakhah.
Agus and Ta-Shma hold that Sepharadim show more influence from Bavel
than Ashkenazim do. After all, Ashkenaz (the Holy Roman Empire) was
largely settled by Jews whose immediate prior residence was in Italy or
Provence, both of which had many slaves and refugees from Churban Bayis
Sheini and the suppression of Bar Kokhva. And so, in terms of
Chazal's communities, Minhag Ashkenaz continues the same stream found in
EY during the period of the geonim.
R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik holds quite the reverse. I do not know his
argument, because RRW studied under Agus, not "Dr Grach". So, my
introduction to the topic was lopsided. And in any case, I want to
look at things from the first perspective anyway.
Say Ashkenazim have a richer mix of Minhag EY, this would be an example.
In the Yerushalmi, the only reason given for mayim acharonim is to protect
oneself from melach sedomis.
In the Bavli, though, that is only one of two reasons given. Eiruvin 17b
mentions the salt, but Berakhos 46b, 53b, Sotah 4b, and Chullin 105a-b all
talk about tum'ah. (And comparison / contrast to mayim rishonim.)
Meanwhile, Ashk are much more lenient about mayim acharonim bizman hazeh
than are Seph. I know Sepharadi homes where the women wash with a revi'is
before bentching.
It could be because Ashk are thinking like EY and are only worried about
melach sedomis, and therefore there isn't much cause for mayim acharonim
beyond keeping minhag going. Whereas Sepharadim not only have to worry
about those sloppy men getting salt on their hands, but everyone should
make sure their hands are tehorim before making a beraskhah mideOraisa.
On Mon, Nov 08, 2021 at 09:56:36PM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
> What would the response be to someone stating, "Because we use washing
> machines nowadays and don't manually scrub at the edge of a body of water,
> we should no longer refrain from washing clothes during Chol haMoeid"?
Depends on whether
1- Is it a gezeira? Like chalav stam. The Peri Chadash said it was a pesaq
in existing rules of kashrus, and therefore would change as the metzius
did. The Chasam Sofer disagreed.
2- Even if it was a gezeira, was it the iqar gezeira or an envelope case.
It is like a home-ground medicine on Shabbos? It is like tuning a
musical instrument or hand clapping?
Here we have motive to permit, as a qula in melakhah on ch"m is a chumera
in simchas yom tov. (Assuming it enables you to wear your favorite outfit,
or you prefer your clothing clean.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
http://www.aishdas.org/asp suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
Author: Widen Your Tent -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
http://www.aishdas.org/asp which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
Author: Widen Your Tent again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH
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Message: 5
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 04:33:09 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] six zchirot
Thinking about the six zchirot - Do you sense something about the language
sometimes using to remember and sometimes not to forget and sometimes both.
Any insights appreciated
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 6
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 16:50:49 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Prayer in Temple Times
From
https://outorah.org/p/110844?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&;utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Vayetzei%205782%20%281%29&utm_content=&spMailingID=33890413&spUserID=MjM3MTAxNzY3NzIS1&spJobID=2063921311&spReportId=MjA2MzkyMTMxMQS2
Q. How did the Jews daven while the Beis HaMikdash stood? Clearly not everyone brought korbanos every day.
A. Thanks for your question. Prayer has always existed. Adam, Noah, Abraham
and Moses all brought sacrifices but they also prayed. So, yes, our daily
prayer services serve as replacements for the absent sacrifices but there
were also prayers when sacrifices were offered. (It might interest you to
know that there was a synagogue on the Temple Mount as part of the Beit
HaMikdash complex.)
Some prayers, like Shema, are in the Torah and were recited since the Torah
was given. The obligation to bentch is in the Torah and the text we use was
written in stages, parts by Moshe, Yehoshua, Dovid and Shlomo.
Originally, people composed their own prayers. The Shemoneh Esrei was
composed by the Men of the Great Assembly at the end of the Biblical period
? again, while the Temple was standing ? and standardized about 400 years
later. So prayer and sacrifices definitely co-existed.
YL
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Message: 7
From: Gershon Seif
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 13:55:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Prayer in Temple Times
It would have nice had he also mentioned the many shuls throughout Israel that had people praying at the time of the korbonos.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 10:50 AM, Prof. L. Levine<llev...@stevens.edu> wrote: #yiv8804996844 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}From
https://outorah.org/p/110844?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&;utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Vayetzei%205782%20%281%29&utm_content=&spMailingID=33890413&spUserID=MjM3MTAxNzY3NzIS1&spJobID=2063921311&spReportId=MjA2MzkyMTMxMQS2
Q. How did the Jews daven while the Beis HaMikdash stood? Clearly not everyone brought korbanos every day.
A. Thanks for your question.?Prayer has always existed. Adam, Noah, Abraham
and Moses all brought sacrifices but they also prayed. So, yes, our daily
prayer services serve as replacements for the absent sacrifices but there
were also prayers when sacrifices were offered. (It might interest you to
know that there was a synagogue on the Temple Mount as part of the Beit
HaMikdash complex.)?
Some prayers, like Shema, are in the Torah and were recited since the Torah
was given. The obligation to bentch is in the Torah and the text we use was
written in stages, parts by Moshe, Yehoshua, Dovid and Shlomo.
Originally, people composed their own prayers. The Shemoneh Esrei was
composed by the Men of the Great Assembly at the end of the Biblical period
? again, while the Temple was standing ? and standardized about 400 years
later.?So prayer and sacrifices definitely co-existed.
YL
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Message: 8
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 14:53:27 +1100
Subject: [Avodah] Where do we find Kabala BeYadam Raven Mipi Rav
Tosafos Bava Basra 10b declare that Rabbenu Channel has a tradition -
Kabala BeYadam Rav Mipi Rav - that the episode, in which the father advised
his son, "what you thought you saw, an upsidown world, with great people at
the bottom and insignificant people above them, is in fact the true
structure of the world, you saw clearly" refers to the consequence, the
downgrading of Shemuel ......
Can anyone advise if this or something like this, is found anywhere else? A
tradition that identifies and connects any piece of Halacha or Agadda to a
particular event or episode.
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Message: 9
From: Toby Katz
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 05:45:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Avodah] Duda'im
In yesterday's parsha we read that Reuven gave his mother duda'im. But
what are duda'im? The word is often translated "mandrakes." A mandrake
is a plant with roots that slightly resemble two human legs. It was
thought to be a fertility enhancer and/or an aphrodisiac. So Rachel might
want it because she wants to get pregnant or Leah might want it so her
husband will love her, but why would Reuven give it to his mother? Maybe
because she hasn't had any babies recently or maybe the second reason, so
his father will love his mother.
If it's an aphrodisiac why would Rachel want it? She already has her
husband's love. I saw on Sefaria blog this by Aidel Davidson: "She felt
Ya'acov's love drifting away from her and gradually gravitating more
towards Leah. Due to being barren, Rachel felt pushed aside to a certain
extent. She, therefore, desired to regain Ya'acov's love through the
Dudaim..."
In college I learned a famous poem by John Donne, "Catch a Falling
Star." The poem is about doing impossible things -- mainly (according to
Donne) finding a faithful woman -- and starts:
"Go and catch a falling star,
Get with child a mandrake root,"
i.e., get a mandrake root pregnant ("with child"). Impossible.
But I wanted to know if dudaim really are mandrake roots, or something
else. The word duda'im seems to be from a root having to do with love.
I'm thinking of a bouquet of pretty flowers that someone might give as a
token of love -- not necessarily a particular plant -- and I'm thinking
that Reuven loved his mother and felt bad for her that his father didn't
love her. Later in his life, after Rochel had died, this same Reuven
moved Yakov's bed from Bilhah's tent to Leah's tent because as a loving
son, he keenly felt his mother's pain.
Btw why was Yakov's bed in Bilhah's tent? I surmise that Bilhah --
Rochel's maid -- was raising Yosef and Binyamin, and that's why her tent
became Yakov's main dwelling. There's an irony in this, as well as a
poignancy, because when Rochel gave Bilhah to Yakov, she thought she would
be the one raising Bilhah's children, but it turned out Bilhah raised
Rochel's children.
When Leah said "Is it not enough you took my husband, do you also want to
take my son's flowers?" she's saying something that to me seems more
emotional than rational. "I don't have what I most long for -- my
husband's love -- but at least I have a little boy who loves me. Do you
want to take that away from me?"
Of course that's poignant too because Rochel does long for precisely that
-- a little child of her own, who would love her in the innocent sweet way
little children love their mothers. Each sister longs for what the other
sister has, and neither sister entirely gets what she longs for in this
world. Leah gets Yakov but he always considers Rochel his real wife --
even years after Rochel's death, when he himself is on his deathbed. And
Rochel gives birth to a second son but does not live to see him.
In noodling around now trying to find a good picture of a mandrake root --
without success -- I found out something I never knew:
"The mandrake root is a powerful hallucinogenic. The active ingredients
cause a condition called anticholinergic toxicity, which causes severe
physical and psychological side effects, including delirium."
But I do not know if duda'im are really mandrakes.
--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
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