Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 92

Fri, 29 Oct 2021

• 1. Re: Leap Years before matan Torah? (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Leap Years before matan Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: endowment effect (Micha Berger)
• 4. May I put challah into a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 5. Re: Shabbos Umbrella (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: May I put challah into a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Shabbos Umbrella (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)

On 25/10/21 5:34 pm, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 05:33:29PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> A more sophisticated answer might be that since we have a rule that when
>> there is no sanhedrin we use a formula, that rule applied not only when the
>> Sanhedrin ceased to function during Galus Bavel and again in the 4th century
>> CE, but also before there was a Sanhedrin in the first place.

> Rabbeinu Bechayei (Chumash, not CV) quotes and agrees with
> Rabbeinu Chananel that even when there is a Sanhedrin, they used a
> formula. Leshitasam, the role of eidim was formal / procedural, and not
> the cause of the new month.

Yes, but that's a daas yachid.  The mainstream view is that they had the 
formula but it was only to be used in emergencies.  They used it in 
Bavel, but stopped when they returned, and resumed in the mid-4th 
century CE.  According to that view there's no reason to suppose the 
formula was not the same one we have, with the possible exception of the 
"Lo ADU Rosh" dechiya.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 05:33:29PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> A more sophisticated answer might be that since we have a rule that when
> there is no sanhedrin we use a formula, that rule applied not only when the
> Sanhedrin ceased to function during Galus Bavel and again in the 4th century
> CE, but also before there was a Sanhedrin in the first place.

Rabbeinu Bechayei (Chumash, not CV) quotes and agrees with
Rabbeinu Chananel that even when there is a Sanhedrin, they used a
formula. Leshitasam, the role of eidim was formal / procedural, and not
the cause of the new month.

That said, since even as late as Abayei there is discussion about things
that are impossible in our calendar, like not knowing the length of Elul
and therefore the date of RH, or the Mishnah's discussion of the various
different dates the Megillah could be read on, etc... I don't see how
these rishonim could mean that the computations were the same we use
today. Just that every Sanhedrin had a computation they would use, and
accept witnesses to fit.

The problem with this for our OP is a problem we have in general with
the idea that the avos keeping kol haTorah qulah. If the halakhah changes
through the centuries as a later Sanhedrin contermands earlier pesaqim,
who would Yitzchaq Avinu have held like?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The worst thing that can happen to a
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   person is to remain asleep and untamed."
Author: Widen Your Tent             - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 03:30:13AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The commentators all limit even others to three meals worth. The reason
> generally given for the limit is "adam bahul al mamono" and thus the
> owner might violate Shabbat to save more/all of the barrel. This limit
> is extended to the others as well.

> Given the endowment effect
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect) how would you explain
> not distinguishing between the owner and others?

Have you ever seen a game show or a store giveaway where a person is put
in a booth with money blowing around in it, and they have 60 seconds
(or the like) to stuff their pockets? Or 5 minutes to fill a cart in
a supermarket for free? They go mamish meshuga trying to maximize what
they get out of the opportunity. (You might think it is free chulent at
a qiddush or somthing!) Is "bo'u vehatzilu lakhem" all that different
of a situation?

The endowment effect means that people have more reluctance to part with
what they already have than drive to acquire what they don't yet. And
therefore will pay less to get something new than will expect to give
it up once they own it.

Is does NOT mean that there is no drive to acquire. So, said meforshim
are saying that that drive is still sufficient to cause someone to bend
Shabbos to get a little more. Even if "bahul al memono" doesn't literally
fit the others in any case, since it's not "memono" yet.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
http://www.aishdas.org/asp               ... but you're the pilot.
Author: Widen Your Tent                          - R' Zelig Pliskin
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. May I put challah into a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos?

A. Challah is a baked dry food, and the principle of ?ain bishul achar
bishul? (there is no cooking after cooking) should apply. Nonetheless,
Shulchan Aruch (OC 318:5) cites the opinion of Rebbi Eliezer Mi?Metz that
it is forbidden to put challah into a bowl of hot soup (or by the same
token to reheat a baked or roasted item by placing it in hot water on
Shabbos). Since baking is a different form of food preparation than cooking
in water, when challah is placed in soup it is cooked for the first time,
and we say ?yesh bishul achar afiya? (cooking occurs after baking) and this
is prohibited. The Shulchan Aruch notes that other poskim do not agree with
Rebbi Eliezer Mi?Metz and they allow putting challah in soup. The Rema
(ibid) also cites both positions. In the opinion of Rav Ovadya Yosef zt?l
(Yebia Omer OC 8:35), the conclusion of Shulchan Aruch is to be lenient
(though it is praiseworthy to be stringent), and that is the position
followed by Sephardim. In contrast, the conclusion o
 f the Rema is to follow the stringent opinion of Rebbi Eliezer Mi?Metz,
 and this is the position followed by Ashkenazim. Accordingly, one may not
 place bread into soup, even if the soup is in a kli sheini (secondary
 vessel, such as a bowl that was filled from a heated pot). If the bread
 was already put in the kli sheini, Mishnah Berurah (318:46) writes that we
 may rely on the lenient opinion and eat the food. Furthermore, Mishnah
 Berurah (318:47) writes that it is permissible to place bread into a kli
 shlishi, and for these purposes a bowl of soup can be viewed as a kli
 shlishi, provided that a ladle was used to serve the soup.

YL
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On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 10:33am EDT I wrote:
> RGS's daily vort today posted a link to an article by Eretz Chemdah which
> described a design for an umbrella that could be opened on Shabbos...
> See ... or https://bit.ly/3BX3ytF

R Ari Zivotofsky replied with a link to
http://www.olam-katan.co.il/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/item/9103
in which R Barukh Efrati lists various respondants and their problems with
this umbrella with a Magein haShabbat.

Frankly, I was disappointed. The objections were about people erring and
using regular umbrellas. Or objection to overturning precedent (although
the umbrella is designed to be unlike precedent).

I mean these are all arguments that would equally apply to Machon
Zomet's work. Or a Shabbos elevator. We don't normally make such
pseudo-gezeiros. Why now? Feels to me like the DL stance was shaped more
by counter-reformation -- C and most Mesoratim allow it -- than by actual
halachic agument.


Also disappointed that my problem wasn't raised. Seems to me that even
if the umbrella is never closed but it isn't left with the canopy part
horizontal and sufficiently far from the floor, it's not an ohel. And
therefore picking it up for use would be boneh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Rescue me from the desire to win every
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   argument and to always be right.
Author: Widen Your Tent                 - Rav Nassan of Breslav
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 Likutei Tefilos 94:964

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 02:30:59PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

> Q. May I put challah into a bowl of hot soup on Shabbos?

Today's AhS Yomi deals with this question. But I was a day ahead, which
meant that just a few minutes before I saw this post on the moderation
queue, I learned OC 318:24-25. Clear siyata diShmaya, I just don't know
what Shamayim is helping me with.

Everything in the article is in those se'ifim of the AhS, and then some.
Thought people may appreciate the mar'eh maqom to a primary source.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   I awoke and found that life was duty.
Author: Widen Your Tent      I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabindranath Tagore

The article posted by Eretz Chemdah does not suffice to circumvent the 
CI. In the end, even this Shabbos umbrella can be seen, at best, in the 
category of riding a bicycle on Shabbos.

KT,

YGB



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