Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 90

Thu, 21 Oct 2021

• 1. Re: slichot time (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: tshuva gmura (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: praying for one to die (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: tshuva gmura (Simon Montagu)
• 5. tshuva gmura (cantorwolberg)
• 6. May I add milk to a hot coffee on Shabbos? (Prof. L. Levine)

I suspect that this is exactly what RJR's original question was about.
Exactly how does one go about juggling these concerns? Which ones should
they accommodate, and which should be ignored? And to what degree? These
are things that cannot be put into a formula or algorithm. It is a great
example of the importance of Shimush.
-----------------------------------------
Correct
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Correct.  Iirc I asked years ago about whether an individual who ?knows better? should leave after mincha if a later maariv is available,

Kt
Joel rich
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On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 03:27:04AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The Rambam in Hilchot Tshuva describes tshuva gmura as being in the
> exact same circumstances and committing the same sin. Should one put
> oneself in this position to accomplish tshuva gemura?

Looking closely at the Rambam's wording in 2:2
<https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Repentance.2.2>:
    ... Veya'id alav Yodeia' Ta'alumos
    shelo yashuv lezeh hacheit le'olam.
    Shene'emar...

    And the One Who Knows Secrets will testify about him that he would not
    ever return to this sin. As it says, "Nor ever again will we call
    our handiwork our God." (Hosheia' 14:4)

So, it's not about not doing it again, but in being in a state where one
wouldn't do it again.

I would also note (as I did in my 10 Yemei Teshuvah Reader, pg 9
<https://www.aishdas.org/10YemeiTeshuvah.pdf#page=11>) that the Rambam
refers to HQBH as Yodeia' Ta'alumos and doesn't choose to speak about
His being lemaalah min hazman. I think he means that Hashem, who Knows
what's going on inside a mind better than the person himself knows,
would testify that the person as they are in that moment wouldn't return
to the sin. And nothing about whether or not the person later backslides
in actuality.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Man is capable of changing the world for the
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   better if possible, and of changing himself for
Author: Widen Your Tent      the better if necessary.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF          - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 1:34pm GMT, RJR wrote:
> Praying for one in excruciating pain to die has some halachic
> underpinning. Others suggest one simply pray for HKB"H to do what's
> best for the individual. Why isn't this what we should pray for in
> any situation?

My reply of Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 11:43am EDT began:
> The case I usually hear cited is that of Rebbe (Kesuvos 104a). The
> Rabbanan pray for his health, his maid prays that he die, and the RBSO
> listens to her. RMF (IM CM 2:73(a)) uses it to conclude that there
> are situations where praying for an easy death is preferable, and even
> times when physical measures to extend life are inappropriate.

More recently, I started wondering:

Why would the IM (and others) assume we hold like the maid and not the
chakhamim? If you're going to say that the fact that R Yehudah haNasi
did indeed die shows the pesaq of beis din shel ma'alah, what does that
say about "lo baShamayim hi"?

RMF invokes the concept of LbSH in the haqdamah (vol 1), and OC 1:14, 15.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 3:58 PM Rich, Joel via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> The Rambam in Hilchot Tshuva describes tshuva gmura as being in the exact
> same circumstances and committing the same sin. Should one put oneself in
> this position to accomplish tshuva gemura?
>
>
If one put yourself in that position deliberately and with foreknowledge
the circumstances would be significantly different psychologically from
what they were originally, so I don't think this cunning plan would work.
Just as you can't deliberately perform mitzvat shicheha or lehavdil use a
mirror to see how you look when you're not looking to see how you look (h/t
Piet Hein)
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 Should one put oneself in this position to accomplish tshuva gemura?
KT

I would answer it this way. If someone were an alcoholic and was able to abstain, should he go to a bar to see if he can withstand the temptation?
I think only a fool would do that.

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. May I add milk to a hot coffee on Shabbos?

A. In a previous Halacha Yomis we noted that although food does not usually
cook in a kli sheini (a secondary vessel), some foods are kalei habishul
and cook easily even in a kli sheini. Since we are uncertain what items are
kalei habishul, we avoid placing all food in a kli sheini. Nonetheless, one
may add cold water to a cup of hot tea (if not scolding hot) because it is
clear from the Talmud that water will not cook in a kli sheini and is not
in the category of kalei habishul. What is the status of milk and fruit
juices? Do we treat them as kalei habishul, or are all liquids the same as
water? Rav Shneur Zalman of Liadi, the founder and first rebbi of Chabad,
wrote in his seminal work Shulchan Aruch Harav (318:12) that all liquids
have the same status as water. This would seemingly include milk.
Accordingly, it would be permissible to add milk to a cup of hot tea.
However, the Mishnah Berurah (318:39) writes that milk may be added to a
kli sheini only if it was originally cooked. 
 Apparently, the Mishnah Berurah disagrees with the Shulchan Aruch Harav
 and does not consider all liquids to be the same as water. (As a side
 note, although we ordinarily do not reheat liquids that have cooled
 because ?yeish bishul achar bishul bedavar lach?, nonetheless the Mishnah
 Berurah allows adding cold cooked milk to a kli sheini. Apparently, this
 is because there is a confluence of two uncertainties: there is minority
 opinion that allows reheating liquids that have cooled, and the status of
 milk as kalei habishul is uncertain.)

Is pasteurized milk considered cooked? Typically, milk is pasteurized at
161?F, and according to Igros Moshe (OC 4:74, Bishul ?3) 160?F is the
temperature of bishul. Still, there is a possibility that the
pasteurization dipped slightly below 160?F. Even so, Tzitz Eliezer (14:32)
writes that one can add pasteurized milk to a kli sheini because of several
considerations. First, many poskim cite the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch
Harav that uncooked liquids may be added to a kli sheini. Second, perhaps
the Mishnah Berurah (who only allows cooked milk in a kli sheiniri) does so
as a stringency and not as an absolute position. Third, the concern that
many foods may be kalei habishul is at most an uncertainty. Fourth, it is
unlikely that the temperature of the water in a kli sheini will be greater
than the temperature at which the milk was pasteurized, and if so, ain
bishul achar bishul will apply even if the pasteurization temperature was
less than160?F. He concludes that since there are so
  many reasons to be lenient, one may add pasteurized milk to a kli sheini.
  However, as we noted in a previous Halacha Yomis, there is an advantage
  to preparing the coffee in a kli shlishi ( a third vessel filled from a
  kli sheni) to avoid the Chayai Adam?s concern of yad nichves (that
  scalding water in a kli sheini is treated like a kli rishon).

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