Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 89

Wed, 20 Oct 2021

• 1. What's All This About People With Good Hair? (Jay F. Shachter)
• 2. Re: slichot time (Zev Sero)
• 3. Q. If a food was cooked before Shabbos, may it be reheated on Shabbos? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 4. Re: slichot time (Micha Berger)
• 5. endowment effect (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: slichot time (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: slichot time (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Re: Shabbos Umbrella (Akiva Miller)
• 9. tshuva gmura (Rich, Joel)

> 
> How should community leadership (Rabbi/Tovei hair [officers])
> think about the trade-off between number of attendees and
> appropriateness of timing when setting time for slichot
> (including PM)?
> 

I don't think that people with good hair should automatically be
considered to be the officers of the community.

Now, it is true that in order to become a navi, you must be, in
addition to other qualifications, rich, and physically impressive,
which means that you must have good hair (Nedarim 38a).  But that is
only at the beginning of your nviuth, so that people will not despise
you, and will be willing to listen to your message.  Once you have
been accepted as a navi, you can lose your wealth, and you can lose
your hair.  We know, for example, that the prophet Elisha lost his
hair.  Moreover, when children teased Elisha about his baldness
(2 Kings 2:23), God sent bears to eat them (2 Kings 2:24).

(I might still become a navi, parenthetically, because I still have
all of my hair.)

Also, we see from Leviticus 13:40-41 that anyone who is bald, is tahor
from tzara`ath.  That pronouncement, in those two psuqim, is made
without any qualification; clearly the pshat of those two psuqim is
that, even if one has tzara`ath elsewhere on his body, anyone who bald
is tahor.

And, in contrast, Avshalom had good hair (2 Samuel 14:25-26), and he
was a mored bmalkhuth -- and the king was his own father -- and he
died an ignominious death, and his hair, in fact, was the indirect
cause of his death (2 Samuel 18:9).

So I think the original poster should retract that part of his posting.


                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 North Whipple Street
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

On 19/10/21 11:12 am, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 05:41:42PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> Not necessarily.  According to kabala, it is *assur* to say selichos before
>> midnight.
> 
> The word "issur" is halakhah-speak.
> 
> Either it is assur according to halakhah, or else there is a minhag based
> on Qabbalah not to say selichos before midnight.

Not true.  Kabala also speaks of issur and heter, and the mekubalim seem 
all to agree that saying selichos before midnight is assur.  Their word, 
not mine.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


A. There is a well-known Talmudic dictum that ?ain bishul achar bishul?
(there is no cooking after cooking, and cooked food may be reheated). The
Shulchan Aruch (OC 318:4) limits this precept to dry foods which are
changed by the cooking process. When solid food cools, it is still cooked,
and reheating it is not considered an act of bishul. As such, on a Biblical
level it is permissible to reheat dry cooked food on Shabbos because ?ain
bishul achar bishul?. On the other hand, a liquid that is cooked does not
undergo a structural change and is only considered cooked while it is hot,
but not when it cools down. A cooked liquid that has cooled may not be
reheated on Shabbos because ?yesh bishul achar bishul bidavar lach?, there
is cooking after cooking for a liquid.

Although reheating dry food is permissible on a Biblical level, Chazal
prohibited placing cooked food on a stove or in an oven on Shabbos because
it might appear to the onlooker that one is cooking raw food on Shabbos
(michzi ki?mevashel), and also because one might adjust the fire (shema
yechateh). One permissible method for warming fully cooked dry foods on
Shabbos is to place the food into a bowl of hot water. Since the bowl is
not on the fire, it does not give the impression that the food is raw, and
there is no fire that can be adjusted.

In halacha, there are different levels of cooking and heating food: on a
stove or in an oven, in a kli rishon (a pot that was removed from the
fire), in a kli sheini (a secondary vessel which was filled with liquid
from a kli rishon) and in a kli shlishi (a third vessel, which was filled
from a kli sheini). In future Halacha Yomis' we will discuss the status of
cooking and reheating food in each of these different manners.

 YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20211019/92d7c14a/attachment-0001.html>

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 04:08:41PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> The word "issur" is halakhah-speak.

>> Either it is assur according to halakhah, or else there is a minhag based
>> on Qabbalah not to say selichos before midnight.

> Not true.  Kabala also speaks of issur and heter, and the mekubalim seem all
> to agree that saying selichos before midnight is assur.  Their word, not
> mine.

I have no idea what you mean.

Deaming something assur vs mutar is halakhah. Like deeming something
chiyuv vs reshus or chayav vs patur. Halakhah is the field of rulings
about behavior. The word "assur" is inherently halachic in topic.

If something is deemed prohibited for Qabbalistic reasons, that would
be a halachic decision. And we can discuss whether darshinan taamei
hamitzvos, etc...

But I am not there yet. I'm still lost on the idea of a non-halachic
issurim.

If you are saying something is mutar according to halakhah but prohibited,
the only prohibition left that I know of is minhag. And there are plenty
Qabbalistic minhagim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Every child comes with the message
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   that God is not yet discouraged with
Author: Widen Your Tent      humanity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Rabindranath Tagore

The Mishna (Shabbat 22:1) says ?????? ???????????????, ?????????? ?????????
?????? ??????? ?????????, ???????? ??????????, ?????? ??????????? ?????,
????????? ??????? ????????. ???? ????????? ??? ????????? ????????? ?????
?????????, ????? ??????? ?????????, ?????????. ?????? ???????? ??????, ???
??????????, ????????? ????? ??????, ????? ???????????, ????????? ?????
??????. ??????? ??????? ??????????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ?????????,
?????????. ???????? ?????????? ???????:
From a barrel of wine or oil that broke on Shabbat, one may rescue from it
food sufficient for three meals, and one may also say to others: Come and
rescue food for yourselves. This applies provided that one does not soak up
the wine or oil with a sponge or rag, due to the prohibition of squeezing.
One may not squeeze fruits on Shabbat in order to extract liquids from
them. And if liquids seeped out on their own, it is prohibited to use them
on Shabbat. Rabbi Yehuda says: If the fruits were designated for eating,
the liquid that seeps from them on Shabbat is permitted. There is no
concern lest one purposely squeeze liquids from fruit that is designated
for eating. And if the fruits were originally designated for liquids, the
liquids that seep from them on Shabbat are prohibited. In the case of
honeycombs that one crushed on Shabbat eve, and honey and wax seeped from
them on their own on Shabbat, they are prohibited, and Rabbi Eliezer
permits using them.. The commentators all limit e
 v
 en others to three meals worth. The reason generally given for the limit
 is ?adam bahul al mamono? and thus the owner might violate Shabbat to save
 more/all of the barrel. This limit is extended to the others as well.
 Given the endowment effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect)
 how would you explain not distinguishing between the owner and others?
Kt
Joel rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20211020/033c5094/attachment-0001.html>

I'm telling you a fact.  Kabalah often says that something is assur, and 
it means the same thing as when the Shulchan Aruch says it's assur. 
Forbidden.  You must not do it.  And if you look up the topic of saying 
selichos before midnight, you will find that the baalei kabala, without 
exception as far as I know, say it's "assur".  (Except on Yom Kippur.)


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

.
I wrote:

> For example, if most people want Shabbos shacharis to be on the late side,
> how do you balance that with Zman Krias Shma - and which shita? Or,
perhaps
> you're okay with reminding them to say Shma before davening, in which case

and R' Micha Berger asked:

> Really, should they be accommodating this "want"? Or is it only okay to
make
> accomodations for things that would actually cause people to miss minyan,
> so that they have to find the minimum of evils?

I suspect that this is exactly what RJR's original question was about.
Exactly how does one go about juggling these concerns? Which ones should
they accommodate, and which should be ignored? And to what degree? These
are things that cannot be put into a formula or algorithm. It is a great
example of the importance of Shimush.

I would also like to analyze your words a bit, specifically: "things that
would actually cause people to miss minyan". Exactly which "things" would
qualify for this description? I would argue that there is little or nothing
that the shul schedule might say that will actually CAUSE people to miss
minyan. On the other hand, there are a great many things that the schedule
might contain which can strengthen one's yetzer hara, to the point where he
doesn't make a strong enough effort to attend.

I believe the classic example, discussed in the Acharonim, is scheduling
mincha/maariv: If people go home after mincha, they very well might not
come back for maariv.

Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20211019/2b76ca03/attachment-0001.html>

.
R' Micha Berger asked:

> Here's my question: Don't people put umbrellas down? So, this
> magein is often less than a tefach off the floor, or sideways
> while the umbrella is being put down and the top is rotated
> to the bottom.
> Wouldn't you have to also keep the umbrella upright?

I did not read that entire article. But your point is certainly among the
several factors why those poskim did NOT sanction this umbrella for Shabbos
use. Your concerns appear on the last page, in the paragraph beginning
"nireh".

Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20211019/e6fa2d29/attachment-0001.html>

The Rambam in Hilchot Tshuva describes tshuva gmura as being in the exact
same circumstances and committing the same sin. Should one put oneself in
this position to accomplish tshuva gemura?
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20211020/9de7a08e/attachment.html>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)