Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 88

Tue, 19 Oct 2021

• 1. Re: slichot time (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Shabbos Umbrella (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: slichot time (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: understanding tosafot (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: No apologies, just a kiss (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: slichot time (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: When Was the Zohar Written (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: slichot time (Micha Berger)

.
R' Joel Rich asked:

> How should community leadership (Rabbi/Tovei hair [officers])
> think about the trade-off between number of attendees and
> appropriateness of timing when setting time for slichot
> (including PM)?

I imagine that they should think about that trade-off similar to how they
think about the trade-off when setting times for the other tefillos. Some
times are more convenient than others. These will be easier for more people
to attend, but sometimes it's not most optimal halachically.

For example, if most people want Shabbos shacharis to be on the late side,
how do you balance that with Zman Krias Shma - and which shita? Or, perhaps
you're okay with reminding them to say Shma before davening, in which case
you need to balance the schedule with Sof Zman Tefila. Weekday shacharis
presents the opposite problem, especially in the winter: Many tend to want
an early minyan so they can go to work afterwards, but that often results
in saying Shmoneh Esreh before Hanetz. Similar questions arise for
Selichos. Ideally, it should be early in the morning, but too early may
lose some people, and not early enough will lose others. And so on.

Whoever it is that's asking specifically about selichos would do well to
review how he balanced the pros and cons elsewhere, and that ought to
provide guidance for this case.

Akiva Miller
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RGS's daily vort today posted a link to an article by Eretz Chemdah which
described a design for an umbrella that could be opened on Shabbos. The
design change is simple: There is a "Magein haShabbas" on the umbrella's
shaft above the main dome that is a tefach wide and cannot close. So
that opening the umbrella is enlarging an ohel arai, not creating one.

See https://www.torahmusings.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/13808-%D7%9E%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%9E%D7%92%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%AA.pdf
or https://bit.ly/3BX3ytF

Here's my question: Don't people put umbrellas down? So, this magein is
often less than a tefach off the floor, or sideways while the umbrella
is being put down and the top is rotated to the bottom.

Wouldn't you have to also keep the umbrella upright?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Here is the test to find whether your mission
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   on Earth is finished:
Author: Widen Your Tent      if you're alive, it isn't.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Richard Bach

On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 08:37:57PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> For example, if most people want Shabbos shacharis to be on the late side,
> how do you balance that with Zman Krias Shma - and which shita? Or, perhaps
> you're okay with reminding them to say Shma before davening, in which case
...

Really, should they be accomodating this "want"? Or is it only okay to
make accomodations for things that would actually cause people to miss
minyan, so that they have to find the minimum of evils?

Which is closer to the RJR's question, which asks about "number of
attendees":
>> How should community leadership (Rabbi/Tovei hair [officers])
>> think about the trade-off between number of attendees and
>> appropriateness of timing when setting time for slichot
>> (including PM)?

But RJR's question is far less problematic than compromising timing for
attendance because when discussing selichos there is nothing comparable
to tefillah betzibbur bizmanah, or Shema with berakhos bizmanah. Selichos
is a minhag, better or worse timing, doubly so.

There is one piyut to contend with on one night of (Ashkenazi) selichos,
and the question is well addressed.

So I think the rabbi and shul board have MUCH more leeway when it comes
to selichos at a suboptimal time in order to get men to attend than
accomodating what men want / won't kvetch about vs. zemanei tefillah.

(I said "men" because we are discussing tefillah bizmanah, and adding
women to the question takes the edge of my contrast.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

(That last line was a conscious reference to "Time is an illusion,
lunchtime doubly so", said by the character Ford Prefect, written by
Douglas Adams.)

-- 
Micha Berger                 When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   others come to love him very naturally, and
Author: Widen Your Tent      he does not need even a speck of flattery.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 06:24:16PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> At one level I certainly get the idea that not fully understanding Tosafot

... because one gave up, rather than because of lack of ability ...

> might be a "moral" failure. On the other hand I distinctly remember
> hearing a shiur quoting R'YBS as saying that question doesn't bother me.
> 
> I always understood this in two ways. The first being that there's just
> a limited amount of bandwidth that each of us has and while we believe
> we could reconcile all these questions, if they're not to the heart of
> the matter...

If I were to learn daf yomi, it would likely be Gemara-Rashi-Meiri. Both
are presenting local peshat, rather than trying to figure out how this
text relates to other sources.

First, because Tosafos is really the start of iyun, and that's not what DY
is for. DY is a way to get the beqius needed to make be'iyun possible.

Second, because knowing two different rishonim's idea of peshat opens
up one mind to the whole idea of a range. Either one becomes much less
self-evident. You only get peshat from Rashi, you often miss how much
is gemara, and how much is particularly to Rashi's understanding of
the gemara.

R Menchaem Meiri was a Catalonian follower of the Rambam. About as far
from Rashi's eidah and approach as you're going to find among Meforshei
haShas.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 If you want others to be happy,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   practice compassion.
Author: Widen Your Tent      If you want to be happy,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    practice compassion.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 11:24:53PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> (1) From where did we get the word "mochel", linguistically?

One can also be mochel a debt. So, when I davening, I think it more
as pardoning, preventing the consequences of the action. And mechilah
alone treats sin a bit economically; I forgive the wrong and don't
expect recompense.

Whereas I thought selichah is more like forgiveness, and restoring
the relationship.

One can restore the relationship but still expect repayment for the
wrong. One could be mochel the debt but still not want further
contact with the person.

And therefore, the way I think of the words when davening, there is a
lot of forgiveness in Tanakh. What there isn't is pardoning someone in
an economy of wrongs sort of way without healing the relationship.
Which is why kisses are so significant. They show selichah.


Then there's the centerpiece of YK, kaparah -- containing the midah
or taavah that led one astray. Like the kapores on the aron. Which is
why it's the step before taharah, removing the flaw like dross from
zahav tahor. Ki bayom hazeh yekhapeir aleikhem letaheir eskhem...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You want to know how to paint a perfect
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   painting?  It's easy.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Make yourself perfect and then just paint
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    naturally.              -Robert Pirsig

On 18/10/21 11:26 am, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> But RJR's question is far less problematic than compromising timing for
> attendance because when discussing selichos there is nothing comparable
> to tefillah betzibbur bizmanah, or Shema with berakhos bizmanah. Selichos
> is a minhag, better or worse timing, doubly so.

Not necessarily.  According to kabala, it is *assur* to say selichos 
before midnight.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 08:52:01PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> R. Avraham Yaari in his sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah comes to some
> interesting conclusions about when the Zohar was actually written.
> His conclusions are based on when the name Simchas Torah was first used
> to designate the second day of Shemini Atzeres. See
> http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/zohar_yaari.pdf

According to R Yaaqov Emden, the central thesis of his Mispachas Sefarim,
the Zohar was wrotten by Rashbi, but it had accumulated other material
over the centuries.

He notes misquotes of Tanakh, a mention of the Crusades (there weren't
even Muslims yet in R Shimon's day) [2:32a], derashos on niqud, mention
of "esnoga" (Portugese for "synagogue") [3:232b], and it explaining the
nequdos as they were coined in Teveryah by Baalei Mesorah contemporary
to the Geonim [1:24b, 2:116a, 3:65a]. And one of his arguments are the
references to other practices that post-date Chazal...

including Simchas Torah in Ra'ayah Mehemna [Pinechas] 256b.

So the idea that the majority of the Zohar is from R Shimon bar Yochai and
yet the snippet mentioning Simchas Torah is one of many later accretions
is centuries older than RAYaari, and proposed by a noted acharon.


It's funny you put this in your RSRH directory. In his book-length
introduction to Horeb, Dayan Grunfeld spends pp. cxx-cxxix (9 pages)
on RSRH's use of the Zohar. RSRH may have questioned the usual mystical
take on the work, but it is hard to believe he would have been okay
saying it was all pseudographic.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The first step towards getting somewhere is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   to decide that you are not going
Author: Widen Your Tent      to stay where you are.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - JP Morgan

On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 05:41:42PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> Not necessarily.  According to kabala, it is *assur* to say selichos before
> midnight.

The word "issur" is halakhah-speak.

Either it is assur according to halakhah, or else there is a minhag based
on Qabbalah not to say selichos before midnight.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha


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