Volume 39: Number 85
Thu, 07 Oct 2021
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:03:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Sistine chapel
On Fri, Sep 03, 2021 at 03:56:58PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I know there were some tours under Jewish that travel there. Is anyone
> aware of any published opinions that allow entering it?
According to Tzeidah laDerekh 78:9 it is prohibited because it is still
a functioning church. Unlike much of the Vatican complex open to the public,
where the primary function is more like a museum.
When R/Dr David Berger was invited to the Vatican, RYBS pasqened something
similar.
NCSY has a nice packet on the subject at
https://staff.ncsy.org/education/education/material/qkXQWVDAaO/touring-the-vatican-and-viewing-its-artwork/
E.g. I learned that RMSternbuch (Teshuvos veHanagos 2:410) would allow my
voting in a church room that wasn't the sanctuary, whereas RMF (IM OC 4:40)
would apparently not.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
Author: Widen Your Tent and helps us cope with adversity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:17:52 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] bechira?
On Sat, Sep 04, 2021 at 11:30:31PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I would think that, l'shitaso, one is not responsible for failures that are
> beyond one's nequdas habechira (nor does one get credit for successes that
> are within his nequdas habechira). But one IS held responsible if he
> doesn't make a sincere attempt to move his nequdas habechira upwards. (This
> might be the same idea as what R' Micha already posted.)
I emphasized the onesh for the past decisions that lowered one's nequdas
habechirah to the point where the decision doesn't cross one's mind. I
emphasized commission, rather than than omission. And I gave a line of
reasoning to buttress that emphasis: Someone who isn't guilty of lowering
that nequdah and didn't think of doing that reason for reasons of nature
or nurture is likely a tinoq shenishba.
For example, Dave was raised in an R home and never thought about keeping
a halachic Shabbos. Would you talk about his not trying to move the
nequdas habechirah to the point where he could have? For that matter,
that meta-consideration too is beyond his NhB.
> "The choices that you make today
> are all that's gonna last.
> The train is moving down the tracks
> and it's moving awful fast."
> ("Ride the Train", Journeys)
You reminded me of one of my gradeschool classrooms that had a Mitzvah
Goreres Mitzvah poster with a train on it. This shitah of nequdas
habechirah ties in well to MGM and aveirah goreres aveirah.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair:
http://www.aishdas.org/asp it gives you something to do for a while,
Author: Widen Your Tent but in the end it gets you nowhere.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
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Message: 3
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 01:03:23 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] understanding tosafot
R' Joel Rich wrote:
> At one level I certainly get the idea that not fully
> understanding Tosafot might be a "moral" failure.
I do not get that idea at ANY level.
I was responding to a discussion based on R? A Lichtenstein. I assumed it
meant that ?moving on? without having expended maximum effort to understand
any (not just tosfot) piece of Torah was not acceptable.
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 4
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 19:34:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] understanding tosafot
.
R' Joel Rich wrote:
> At one level I certainly get the idea that not fully
> understanding Tosafot might be a "moral" failure.
I do not get that idea at ANY level.
How can an inability to fully understand something be a MORAL failure? In
what way is someone morally deficient, just because his mental abilities
aren't strong enough to comprehend what Tosafos is saying? WADR, this
doesn't make sense.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding RJR. Perhaps what RJR meant was that if a
person begins to learn a Tosafos, and finds it too difficult, so he gives
up, then the giving up is the moral failure. Perhaps he needs to keep on
working at it, until he finally and fully understands it, but if he gives
up before that, then he has failed in his obligation, and that is a moral
failure.
But if that's what RJR means, then how is Tosafos different from any other
piece of Torah that one begins to learn, and then he abandons it because of
its difficulty? If one sees a Rashi and doesn't fully understand it, so
he moves on anyway, is that a greater or lesser "moral failure" than moving
on from a difficult Tosafos?.
Akiva Miller
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 12:26:11 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of
On Fri, Oct 01, 2021 at 07:15:25PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC
> 2:75) and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one
> has no other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea...
The AhS refers to "teih matoq", whereas in other places he does talk about
"teih" without the "matoq".
In 89:23 he allows drking tea before Shacharis, and notes that some
prohibited drinking it with sugar, but he didn't understand why. But
this is enough to make me wonder whether tea and sweet tea can be just
assumed to be the same thing. Even the AhS, who doesn't understand the
reason to make a distinction in OC 89, may feel that tea and sweet tea
were different in this context. After all, why here does it say "teih
matoq", if he uses "teih" alone everywhere else?
I raised this possibility here before, that the AhS only considers tea
with sugar chamar medinah. At least in his milieu. Other societies may
relate to both tea and to sugar differently.
Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
http://www.aishdas.org/asp as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
Author: Widen Your Tent other people think when dealing with spiritual
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF matters? - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:38:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] 2 gemaras
On 5/10/21 4:58 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Brachot 58B says a dead person is not forgotten from the heart for 12
> months whereas Moed Katan 8b says 30 days. How do omnisignificers deal
> with this?
This obviously refers to different degrees of forgetting
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name happiness in 5782
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Message: 7
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 16:30:48 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] The Difference Between Davening and Learning
The following is from page 38 of Rabbi Berel Wein's book Patterns in Jewish History.
"A great sage once remarked that when we pray, we speak to G-d. When we study Torah, G-d, as it were, speaks to us."
I believe that we would all benefit if we kept this adage in mine regularly.
YL
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 15:01:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] 2 gemaras
On Tue, Oct 05, 2021 at 08:58:18PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Bava Batra 60b seems to imply (by the comparable reactions) that the
> destruction of the temple was not as bad as the harsh decrees of Rome
> (against torah study and mitzvot.)
I don't see how you make the deduction. The reavtions are topical --
the loss of qorbanos and nesachim in Hashem's house caused a negative
reaction toward enjoying meat and wine in our own. Whereas not being
able to keep mitzvos critical to raising children to be observant led
to a lack of desire to marry and have children.
> Brachot 58B says a dead person is not forgotten from the heart for 12
> months whereas Moed Katan 8b says 30 days. How do omnisignificers deal
> with this?
In Berakhos, Rav says 12 months right after R Yehoshua ben Levi said
that one says shehechiyanu after 30 days and mechayeh hameisim after
12 months. The two time spans are being contrasted, it seems. There is
/something/ being marked at 30 days, but it's the 12 month mark that
is called "mishtakeiach min haleiv". (Which does gives weight to Zev's
explanation.)
Also, looking at Rav's source pasuq, forgotten from the heart is "like
a lost keli". Which ties it to yei'ush on a davar shene'evad (BM 28a,
82a) and an entirely different area of halakah. And, interesting enough,
that too has a din tied to 30 days: one needs to announce finding the
item for 30 days.
So maybe we could suggest: Nishkach min haleiv at 30 days is if no one
brings up the subject, whereas one's ears stop pricking up at oblique
mentions at 1 year.
Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
http://www.aishdas.org/asp your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
Author: Widen Your Tent and it flies away.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 12:39:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Difference Between Davening and Learning
On Wed, Oct 06, 2021 at 04:30:48PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> "A great sage once remarked that when we pray, we speak to G-d. When
> we study Torah, G-d, as it were, speaks to us."
Related:
RYBS described the siddur as a project that was begun by Anshei Keneses
haGdolah because as we lost nevu'ah, we needed a new way to maintain the
dialog with the Almighty.
Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:55:31 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Difference Between Davening and Learning
On Thu, Oct 07, 2021 at 10:53:03AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> > RYBS described the siddur as a project that was begun by Anshei Keneses
> > haGdolah because as we lost nevu'ah, we needed a new way to maintain the
> > dialog with the Almighty.
>
> Was he implying that people did not daven when there was nevu'ah? If so,
> then I do not think that this is correct...
AIUI, RYBS was saying there was no siddur, no liturgical prayer, until
Anshei Keneses haGdolah. In the Gra's parlance, there were tachanunim,
but no tefillos. (Or: ba'ushon dekhol Beis Yisrael, but not tzelosehon.)
With the loss of prophecy, we need something else for Hashem's voice.
To give my own mashal.... If the boss is speaking at a meeating, he controls
the meeting's agenda by chosing what to say. But if you're the one speaking
at the meeting, he may have his administrative assistant send you a desired
intinerary for the meeting.
Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
PS: Speaking of baqashos... My chavrusah,
Yaakov David Daniel ben Sarah Rivka
is receiving a kidney as I am type this. Please daven for his recovery.
Please also daven for his son
Aryeh Moshe ben Sarah Rivah (no quf)
-- the donor.
My first reaction when R Yaakov gave me his son's name was "What exactly
is there I can add compared to the zekhus of donating a kidney for one's
father?" Then I remembered, nebich, the poor boy Rav Elisha ben Avuyah
saw... Can't make cheshbonos. Gotta daven.
--
Micha Berger Take time,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp be exact,
Author: Widen Your Tent unclutter the mind.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
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Message: 11
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 10:53:03 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The Difference Between Davening and Learning
At 12:39 PM 10/6/2021, Micha Berger wrote:
>Related:
>RYBS described the siddur as a project that was begun by Anshei Keneses
>haGdolah because as we lost nevu'ah, we needed a new way to maintain the
>dialog with the Almighty.
Was he implying that people did not daven when there was nevu'ah? If
so, then I do not think that this is correct. After all, weren't
Shachris, Mincha, and Maariv established by the Avos? Weren't the
first 3 brachos of bentching establish while there was still
nevu'ah? Didn't Dovid compose a lot of Tehillim? Weren't Torah
brochos established from the time the Torah was given.
All of these and more are dialog with HaShem.
My impression is that the Anshei Keneses ha'Gdolah formalized some
things, but did not create something new.
YL
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