Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 80

Tue, 14 Sep 2021

• 1. Is it a proper warning, or is it lashon hara? (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Is it a proper warning, or is it lashon hara? (Joseph Kaplan)
• 3. Re: Machnisei Rachamim redux (Zvi Lampel)
• 4. Re: Machnisei Rachamim redux (Micha Berger)
• 5. May a person who is ill eat or drink on Yom Kippur? (Prof. L. Levine)

At 06:44 AM 9/9/2021, R Akiva Miller wrote:
>.
>Someone wrote the following: (I will not say who wrote it, nor how they
>know me. It's even possible that I'm the one who wrote it.)
>
> > A rabbi who I know, and who is involved on the highest level
> > with the kashrus for a very large organization, wrote to me
> > the following. He said that he had been in meat plants in [a
> > certain area] and elsewhere, while shechita was done under
> > supervision of [a certain hechsher]. He said, "That hechsher
> > does not really care if the meat is kosher or not."
>
>I'd like to hear from other people. What is your opinion? Does the above
>paragraph constitute a fair and proper warning for people to avoid that
>hechsher, or is it lashon hara? Or might you describe it in some other
>manner?
The first issue to deal with is "Do people thank 
that all hashgachas are equally reliable?"  I 
think not. For example,  there is a brand of 
delicatessen sold nationally that is not glatt 
that, as far as I know, no one who is strictly 
orthodox will use.  People feel that the 
hashgacha is not reliable. Is this loshon 
hara?  I think not.  It is merely stating what 
most Orthodox Jews consider to be the truth.

On the other hand, many people living in Brooklyn 
will buy any product sold in the "kosher 
supermarkets"   without paying attention to whose 
hashgacha the product has.  Some are careful to 
buy products only under certain hashgachas no matter where they are sold.

Many Chassidim will not buy a product that is 
only under the OU. They will insist on a heimishe 
hashgacha. "The OU is not good enough," they assert. Is this loshon hara?

See Understanding the Reliability of Kosher Agencies at

https://www.crcweb.org/understanding_reliab.php?fbclid=IwAR0OR_1r_o7qyhk7L3bmntRjnnBJWzLHOLlLTd4qryYPJlhpTOi3SXSwTmE

 From there

In order to further clarify this sensitive 
subject, the cRc has categorized the kosher 
agencies into three groups. The first two groups 
are easily explained?recommended and not 
recommended. The third group is known as a 
?detail? agency. This agency?s products are 
accepted on conditions, and they are investigated 
on a case-by-case basis to determine if each final product is acceptable.

Is the fact that some kashrus agencies are not 
recommended some sort of indirect  loshon hara?  I think not.

Some shuls in Brooklyn will allow only certain 
caterers in their shuls.  Is that fact that those 
caterers not allowed in their shuls some sort of 
indirect loshon hara?  I think not.

Kashrus is a big business and the opportunity to 
earn money is always tempting.  Sadly, some 
rabbis are more concerned about the money end 
than the kashrus end, and the result is 
unreliable supervision.   How is the public to 
know about these cases unless they are 
publicized?   Making such information public is, 
IMO, not loshon hara, but a public service.

YL



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RAM posted the following and asked our opinion about his post as set forth in the subject: 

?Someone wrote the following: (I will not say who wrote it, nor how they
know me. It's even possible that I'm the one who wrote it.)

> A rabbi who I know, and who is involved on the highest level
> with the kashrus for a very large organization, wrote to me
> the following. He said that he had been in meat plants in [a
> certain area] and elsewhere, while shechita was done under
> supervision of [a certain hechsher]. He said, "That hechsher
> does not really care if the meat is kosher or not."

I would need more information to venture an opinion. Was this information
solicited and if so what was asked? Or was it unsolicited? How well does
the recipient know the sender? What was the context in which it was sent?
And were any follow-up questions asked and ? very important ? answered?
That?s fir starters. 

Joseph

Sent from my iPhone

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>

> I have two new data points about the issue of Makhnisei Rachamim
> andwhether it crosses the line into praying to middlemen.


I don't think anyone has mentioned yet an additional data point:

The Ramban in Toras Hashem Temimah (Kisvei Ramban, Mosaad HaRav Kook,
Chavel, p. 171 apparently (some words are missing in the ms.) frowns on
saying the piyut, and refers to the Rambam's Sefer HaMadda on this.

I also came across an article that presents many more data points:

https://www.beureihatefila.com/files/Machnisei_Rachamim_2.pdf

Zvi Lampel

On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 03:25:49PM -0400, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
>> Why assume we are referring to mal'achim?  The Be'er Yaaqov (a commentary
>> on Selichos by R Chaim Tzevi Font) explains the following:
...
> OK, but other commentaries insist we indeed are praying to *malachim* (e.g.
> see https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=45016&;st=&pgnum=28), so is
> what you're quoting really an explanation of the writer's intent or just
> an *ex post facto* rationale/defense?

I thought of it in a third way -- a way to both avoid potential AZ and
perishah min hatzibbur. (If your tzibbur is saying it.) A suggested
kavvanah needn't b the autor's intent. Or at least not his conscious
intent -- who knows what "motivation" was behind the ruach haqodesh?

GCT!
-Micha

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. May a person who is ill eat or drink on Yom Kippur?

A. If a person is a choleh sheyesh bo sakanah (suffering from a
life-threatening illness), it is forbidden to fast. Rather, it is a mitzvah
for such an individual to eat on Yom Kippur. Nonetheless, halacha
stipulates that when possible, the breaking of the fast should be minimized
by eating or drinking less than the shiur (amount) for which a healthy
individual would be liable for the Divine punishment of kares. In practice,
when feasible, one who is ill should eat less than the volume of a large
date and drink less than a cheek full. Both of these volumes are somewhere
between 1 to 1 ? fluid ounces.

The Shulchan Aruch states that when a time span of kedai achilas pas has
elapsed, the same amounts can be eaten and drunk again. There are a wide
range of opinions for the length of this time span, ranging from 2-9
minutes. It is recommended that the reader consult their local rabbi.

If these amounts do not alleviate the life-threatening situation, the
person who is ill may eat and drink in a normal manner. Once the danger to
one?s health has passed, continued eating and drinking should be limited to
the shiur described above. (Shulchan Aruch 618-7 and 8 and Beur Halacha
s.v. ve?im)

YL
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