Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 76

Mon, 30 Aug 2021

• 1. What is the preferable time to say selichos? (Prof. Levine)
• 2. peshuto shel mikra (Jay F. Shachter)
• 3. Re: What is the preferable time to say selichos? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: What is the preferable time to say selichos? (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: What is the preferable time to say selichos? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Hebrew Pronunciation (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: peshuto shel mikra (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: peshuto shel mikra (Isaac Balbin)
• 9. Re: peshuto shel mikra (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: OU Mini Seedless Cucumbers (Isaac Balbin)
• 11. Slixoth In Elul (Jay F. Shachter)
• 12. Re: aseih docheh lo taaseh (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Lace top sheitel thoughts (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: OU Mini Seedless Cucumbers (Micha Berger)

At 03:26 PM 8/27/2021, Eli Turkel wrote:
>you obviously don't know many sefardom and temanim.

I do not know any sefardom! >:-} Do you?

BTW,  who says that the way sefardim or temanim pronounce Hebrew is 
the correct way?

As a fan of all things Ashkenaz,  I suggest that the Ashkenaz 
pronunciation is preferable and probably correct. It has the 
difference between beis and veis, sof and tof!

YL

>
> First of all, Rashi *is* peshuto shel mikra.
>

According to Lubavitchers.  Not according to his grandson.  Read
Rashbam on Genesis 37:2, which is my second-favorite Rashbam.

(My favorite Rashbam is his comment on Genesis 49:16.)

                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 North Whipple Street
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 03:48:55PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> BTW,  who says that the way sefardim or temanim pronounce Hebrew is the
> correct way?

> As a fan of all things Ashkenaz,  I suggest that the Ashkenaz pronunciation
> is preferable and probably correct. It has the difference between beis and
> veis, sof and tof!

Who said there is one correct way? Even back in seifer Shofetim different
shevatim had different accents. As we know, in Efraim's accent shin
and sin have the same sound.

It seems that what's "right" is to have regional accents and natural
evolution.
Ask Kaleiv BEN Yefuneh and Yehoshua BIN Nun.

In any case, Teimanim also distinguish between beis and veis, sov and
thov, and for that matter, thov and sin / samech! If having the most
distinct sounds for dinstinct letters and vowels is the criterion,
they win.

Interesting also, the Litvisher choelem is found in Yemen as well.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
Author: Widen Your Tent      You light a candle.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF      - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

<< Who said there is one correct way? Even back in seifer Shofetim different
shevatim had different accents. As we know, in Efraim's accent shin
and sin have the same sound.>>

Doesn't mean Bnei Efraim was right just they couldn't pronounce the
difference just like some litvaks in the past.
Even if the Yeminites are correct it is difficult for a npn-yemenite to
speak like that - doesn't make it correct.
Many people have trouble with a gutteral chet again not necessarily correct
but the best they can do.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 12:18 AM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 03:48:55PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> > BTW,  who says that the way sefardim or temanim pronounce Hebrew is the
> > correct way?
>
> > As a fan of all things Ashkenaz,  I suggest that the Ashkenaz
> pronunciation
> > is preferable and probably correct. It has the difference between beis
> and
> > veis, sof and tof!
>
> Who said there is one correct way? Even back in seifer Shofetim different
> shevatim had different accents. As we know, in Efraim's accent shin
> and sin have the same sound.
>
> It seems that what's "right" is to have regional accents and natural
> evolution.
> Ask Kaleiv BEN Yefuneh and Yehoshua BIN Nun.
>
> In any case, Teimanim also distinguish between beis and veis, sov and
> thov, and for that matter, thov and sin / samech! If having the most
> distinct sounds for dinstinct letters and vowels is the criterion,
> they win.
>
> Interesting also, the Litvisher choelem is found in Yemen as well.
>
> :-)BBii!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you don't chase out the darkness with a
> broom.
> Author: Widen Your Tent      You light a candle.
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF      - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg
> zt"l
>


-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 11:03:33PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> Who said there is one correct way? Even back in seifer Shofetim different
>> shevatim had different accents. As we know, in Efraim's accent shin
>> and sin have the same sound.

> Doesn't mean Bnei Efraim was right just they couldn't pronounce the
> difference just like some litvaks in the past.

Define "right accent". It's ancient, millennia before the Baalei Mesorah
of Tiveriah and the accent that shaped their choice of nequdos. Litvaks
are the product of moving from culture to culture where the host country's
language didn't always have all the sounds in the Hebrew they had been
speaking. Ephraim was an autonomous entity at that point, the only other
potential influences being a marked enemy and the other shevatim. And
had been so since Har Sinai.

> Even if the Yeminites are correct it is difficult for a non-yemenite to
> speak like that - doesn't make it correct.

What makes Yemenite Hebrew so close to that of the Baalei Mesorah is
that the outside influence on their accent was another semitic language.
And, they weren't pushed from country to country every several centuries.
Makes a much smaller vector for change.

> Many people have trouble with a gutteral chet again not necessarily correct
> but the best they can do.

But that is due to picking up accents from a succession of host countries.

The Yiddish "Yankef" is testimony to Ashkenaz once having a sound for
ayin. Even if it fell out since. Which is unsurprising, since I don't
know a European language that has one of the ayin sounds.

In Moshav Matityahu, R Zev Leff has them lein parashat Zakhor according
to each of the traditional havarot of any member of the Moshav. But
Yekkish is done twice -- once modern, and once with recreations of the
Old Ashkenaz ches and ayin. (And to be honest, I think I remember them
making Poilish suffice for the Litvaks, even without the right choelem.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You want to know how to paint a perfect
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   painting?  It's easy.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Make yourself perfect and then just paint
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    naturally.              -Robert Pirsig

The discussion of the preferable time to say 
selichos has led to a discussion of Hebrew 
pronunciation. For more on this, please see the article


The Real Story of Hebrew Pronunciation

by Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel at 
https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-culture/language/real-story-hebrew-pronunciation/

 From the article

Given that there is no certainty regarding the 
authenticity of one tradition over another, it is 
not surprising that most posekim, including Rabbi 
Yitzchak HaCohen Kook?despite his nationalistic 
bent and positive feelings toward the revival of 
the Hebrew language?took the position that one 
may not change his ancestral custom regarding pronunciation.

See the above URL for much more.

See also the article


No, Sephardic Pronunciation Is Not More ?Correct? Than Ashkenazi

by 
<https://forward.com/author/alexander-beider/>Alexander 
Beider  at 
https://forward.com/opinion/398738/no-sephardic-pronunciation-is-not-more-correct-than-ashkenazi/

 From this article


Many people believe that when it comes to the 
Hebrew language, the Sephardic pronunciation is 
the correct one. It?s common to hear that this is 
the reason that modern Israeli Hebrew 
pronunciation is based on the Sephardic one. 
People have told me for instance that the 
phonetics of the Sephardic speech is closer to 
the pronunciation used in the biblical period.

And yet, none of this is accurate. The first 
assertion is senseless from a linguistic point of 
view. The second one is partly incorrect. And the third one is speculative.

  <Snip>


Which one of the three ancient dialects, 
?Tiberian?, ?Palestinian? or ?Babylonian,? did 
Jews speak during the time of King David?

We have no information to help us definitively 
answer the question. But even during the time of 
King David, Jews in different parts of the Land 
of Israel might have pronounced Hebrew 
differently ? and ?the Forward? was not yet 
around to teach them the correct way to do it.

See the above URL for more.

YL
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On 27/8/21 6:12 pm, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote:
>> First of all, Rashi*is*  peshuto shel mikra.
>>
> According to Lubavitchers.  Not according to his grandson.

According to Rashi himself.   "Ani lo ba'si ela lefaresh peshuto shel 
mikra, ul'agada ham'yasheves divrei hamikra."

Also according to Klal Yisrael, which adopted Rashi as Rabban Shel 
Yisrael, and included his grandson as merely one of the general mix of 
"alternative explanations".

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

On 28 Aug 2021, at 5:26 am, R' Zev Sero wrote:
> First of all, Rashi *is* peshuto shel mikra.  And in this case Rashi's 
> source is directly from the Sifri.  I think that's more authoritative 
> than the Ramban's sources.

Not necessarily. According to the Sefer Zikaron Al Pirush Rashi (Bakrat),
when Rashi says that he explained Peshuto Shel Mikra that was on the
SPECIFIC Pesukim that Rashi says "Ani Lo Basi *Ela* Lefaresh"

Furthermore according to the Sefer Zikaron, Rashi chooses (a hierarchy)
of the closest Chazals to Pshat, which then gives rise to why he chose
one over another.

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 11:03:57AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> According to Rashi himself.   "Ani lo ba'si ela lefaresh peshuto shel mikra,
> ul'agada ham'yasheves divrei hamikra."

Clearly Rashi and the Rashbam have different definitions of "peshat".
Anyone who read the two peirushim would see as much. Rashi's frequent
citations of medrash would not fit the Rashbam's conception of peshuto
shel miqra.

I have a theory that I only spot-checked and could use MUCH more work.
I think Rashi's "peshat" includes anything that explains a grammatical
anomoly. Such as when translation alone cannot get you an understanding
of why a verse that talks about a rabbim reaching Har Sinai but then
"vayichan sham" -- a yachid camps there. Rashi would consider "ke'ish
echad beleiv echad" part of peshuto shel miqra, since it's the simplest
explanation of the shift in number. But his grandson (or the IE, etc...)
would not.

I am not sure if there are implications to this difference, or if
different rishonim used the words slightly differently.

And of course, I am not certain the theory works across every Rashi in
Tanakh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
Author: Widen Your Tent      other people think when dealing with spiritual
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 28 Aug 2021, at 6:44 am, R' Akiva Miller wrote:
> The basis is bitul. Look in just about any guide to kashrus on Pesach. They
> all say that if you can't get milk that has a hechsher for Pesach, then any
> store-bought milk is fine as long as it is purchased before Pesach begins.
> It seems to me that if that is the halacha for Pesach, it is certainly okay
> the rest of the year.

Agencies, and this certainly includes the OU and dare I say most of the
major ones do not allow for Bitul Lechatchila of an Issur. (Even if it's
not a Ma'mid or Avidi LeTaamo etc) The history of Coke was a case in point
where they had Coca cola change the formula rather than rely on Mevatlin
Issur LeChatchila... Some levels of Rabbanut Kashrus do allow Bitul FWIW.

(That's not to say those whose Poskim utilise Bitul are consuming Treyf
Chas veshalom)

The example before Pesach is not of an Issur per se at that time. Of
course you will be aware that because of Chumra of Pesach, where
alternatives exist many also don't use that hetter either.

>
> .... Meanwhile when it comes to selichos, Sepharadim say them the
> whole month, and it's Ashkenazim who only start at shavua shechal
> bo.
>
> Anyone want to venture a theory as to what this says about Ashk vs
> Seph hashkafic differences?
>

It's because of all the rice and beans that the Sfardim eat on
Passover.  They have to spend an entire month asking forgiveness for
that.  Also they don't shave their heads and wear wigs after they get
married.  They have to spend an entire month asking forgiveness for
that, too.

Actually, most Sfardim don't eat rice on Passover, if by "Sfardim" we
mean "Jews who are mostly descended from Spanish Jews".  This is
mostly just the Jews of North Africa, where refugees from the Spanish
expulsion outnumbered the indigenous Jews; most North African Jews
don't eat rice on Passover, and that used to include even the Tunisian
Jews, until a couple of hundred years ago when they abandoned that
stringency.  Other Jewish communities that are now considered to be
Sfardi -- I'm not talking about, e.g., the Persian or Indian Jews, who
are often called `Edoth HaMizrax and recognized to be different from
the true Sfardim; I'm talking about, e.g., the Jews of the Balkans, or
Bulgaria -- are not mostly descended from Spanish Jews, and they
became Sfardi thru a process of lakewoodification: some Spanish Jews
settled in those areas, whereupon they immediately proclaimed "our
practices are the only valid ones, and if you want to marry me,
whether you are a man or a woman, you must abandon your traditional
practices and adopt mine".  In this way Sfardi practice, like
mamzeruth, was inherited from either one's mother or one's father, and
thus after many generations spread out over the entire community.  No
other comparison between Sfardi practice and mamzeruth is expressed or
implied.

Some of these Jewish communities had interesting and unique practices.
The Bulgarian Jews, for example, before they were lakewoodified into
extinction, used to read Mgillath Esther in Greek (yes, you knew that
that was allowed, but you might not have known that anyone actually
did it).

                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 North Whipple Street
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 02:48:42AM -0400, cantorwolberg via Avodah wrote:
>> I think that it is because we cannot know what the world needs, or
>> what we ourselves need, that the mishnah tells us to be as cautious of
>> mitzvos qalos as we are of chamuros....

> A true kleptomaniac would not logically receive onesh for stealing.
> I, on the other hand, who has not an ounce of desire to steal should
> not receive s'char for not stealing because it was never the slightest
> temptation for me.

What you describe sounds like Rav Dessler's notion of the nequdas
habechirah (tr. R Aryeh Carmell):

    When two armies are locked in battle, fighting takes place only at
    the battlefront. Territory behind the lines of one army is under that
    army's control and little or no resistance need be expected there. A
    similar situation prevails in respect of territory behind the lines
    of the other army. If one side gains a victory at the front and pushes
    the enemy back, the position of the battlefront will have changed. In
    fact, therefore, fighting takes place only at one location.

He writes that bechirah chofshi is similar:

    Free will is exercised and a valid choice made only on the borderline
    between the forces of good and the forces of evil within that person.

And to throw in a particularly Elul-appropriate snippet:

    With each good choice successfully carried out, the person rises
    higher in spiritual level; that is, things that were previously in
    the line of battle are now in the area controlled by the yetzer hatov
    and actions done in that area can be undertaken without struggle
    and without bechira. And so in the other direction. Giving in to the
    yetzer hara pushes back the frontier of the good, and an act which
    previously cost one a struggle with one's conscience will now be
    done without bechira at all.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 We look forward to the time
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   when the power to love
Author: Widen Your Tent      will replace the love of power.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF              - William Ewart Gladstone

On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 08:43:24PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> When I first heard of the issue I assumed that those who prohibited were
> doing it on a meta halachic tzniut basis...

I think the machloqes could be lined up leshitasam with allowing mechitzos
that are only 10 tefachim, or some other height that doesn't block the view.

> I would however add some food for thought about making a technical
> argument that it's not technically prohibited. Some might say we are
> trying to have it both ways. When we see a result that we don't like based
> on a technical argument that's not prohibited we make the meta argument
> (e.g. women's prayer groups) , however when we like the result of the
> technical we leave it as is (e.g. lace tops)

I have made a similar argument that methodology has to be consistent some
years ago.

At the time, it seems we had a vocal contingent advocating two positions
at the same time:

- Married women don't really need to cover their hair. It must be
  das Yehudis or something. But we know from practical tradition, that
  many in Eastern Europe felt the obligation wasn't binding.

- We should be opening up ordination to women. While we never done
  so before, there is not technical legal reason for it.

But to me it seems like they were whittling away the wood from both
sides.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but to become a tzaddik.
Author: Widen Your Tent                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 05:59:36PM +1000, Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote:
> Agencies, and this certainly includes the OU and dare I say most of the
> major ones do not allow for Bitul Lechatchila of an Issur...

See my post with R Klapper's milk story. The presence of the hekhsher
ruins relying on the fact that the non-Jew wasn't being mevatel the
ingredient for Jews.

The question would be: Do they prohibit using ingredients that would
only be kosher by relying on bitul?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
Author: Widen Your Tent      tasks as if they were great and noble.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                            - Helen Keller


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