Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 62

Thu, 15 Jul 2021

• 1. May I go swimming or canoeing during the Nine Days? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 2. Re: Even More on Secular Studies and Yeshiva Eduacation (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Even More on Secular Studies and Yeshiva Eduacation (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Petach Tikva, Secular Studies, and Ivrit (Prof. L. Levine)
• 5. Re: Even More on Secular Studies and Yeshiva Eduacation (Micha Berger)
• 6. Use of freshly cleaned towels, bed sheets, tablecloths and handkerchiefs during the Nine Days (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. Re: Petach Tikva, Secular Studies, and Ivrit (Zev Sero)
• 8. The Problem with Jewish Education (Prof. L. Levine)

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. May I go swimming or canoeing during the Nine Days?

A. Since bathing and showering one?s entire body are prohibited during the
Nine Days, the same restriction applies to swimming as well (Aruch
HaShulchan OC 551:35). Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l prohibited canoeing during
the Nine Days because the unstable canoe might overturn and one would fall
into the water (Moadei Yeshurun p. 136:41 and p. 161:164).

It has been mentioned in a previous Halacha Yomis that dangerous activities
should be avoided during the entire period of the Three Weeks, it is
apparent that Rav Moshe, zt?l did not consider canoeing a dangerous
activity and therefore he allowed canoeing until the Nine Days. Rabbi Moshe
Perlowitz, zt?l suggested that canoeing down roaring rapids is in fact
dangerous and should be avoided the entire Three Weeks.

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On 12/7/21 10:54 am, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> 
> I will tell you a piece of history that no one will tell you today . We 
> all know the story of the CHOPFETZ CHAIM going to the Polish prime 
> minister to nullify the decree that all children must have 4 years of 
> secular education. What no one will tell you that a few years later they 
> set up a network of CHADORIM called YAVNEH with full secular program and 
> RAV ELCHONON WASSERMAN went around collecting money for it . They asked 
> Rav Elchonon isn't the CHOFFETZ CHAIM against secular learning in 
> Yeshivos to which he replied that they saw that the average BAL HABOS 
> did not want to send his son to a place without secular education so 
> they were sending to not frum CHADORIM, so we had to change and make a 
> good program of secular education.

In other words this was a bediavad solution, an eis laasos, because 
parents were refusing to send their sons to a proper cheder.  If not for 
that they would never have done it.  And where there are parents willing 
to send their sons to a proper cheder, the lesson from this story is 
that there should be one for them to send to.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

.
R' Yitzchok Levine passed on a story without any attribution, which makes
it very difficult to verify. Anyway, here's part of it:

<<< ,,, a few years later they set up a network of CHADORIM called YAVNEH
with full secular program and RAV ELCHONON WASSERMAN went around collecting
money for it . They asked Rav Elchonon isn't the CHOFFETZ CHAIM against
secular learning in Yeshivos to which he replied that they saw that the
average BAL HABOS did not want to send his son to a place without secular
education so they were sending to not frum CHADORIM, so we had to change
and make a good program of secular education. >>>

If this story is true and accurate, then what I understand from it is that
Rav Elchonon Wasserman would have preferred to have no secular learning
there at all, and it was only b'dieved that they allowed the full secular
program.

Akiva Miller
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I was sent the following interesting piece this morning.

I want to relate to you a very important piece of history. In the
autobiography of Rav Moshe Blau, who was a very important Agudah person in
Israel. He relates the following story. As we all know Pesach Tikvah was
founded by a Talmud of Rav Yeshuah Leib Diskind, namely, Horav Zorach
Braverman. In those days, a farming community could not exist without the
financial support of Baron Rothschild. Unfortunately, the representatives
of the Baron were violently anti-religious and did everything in their
power not to support the community, but to hamper them. As a result, most
of the people moved back to Yerushalayim. But a few people stayed. However,
there was no frum Cheder left there. So, 2 young men went to Horav Yosef
Chaim Sonnenfeld and told him they wanted to start a frum Cheder, but they
must learn in Ivrit and have a full program of secular studies, or they
cannot get students. He told them "When we came to Israel, we made a
mistake in that we did not start speaking Hebrew," He sa
 id there was nothing wrong with teaching in Ivrit. As far as secular
 studies, he said, "I was one of the signers of the ban on secular studies.
 We only made the ban, because parents were sending their sons to the
 ALIANCE school to get an education, and this school was making them not
 religious. We never meant a complete ban on teaching secular studies. Any
 way the ban was only in Yerushalayim. Please go and open your cheder. It's
 a great mitzvah."

All of this can be found in the autobiography.

For information of R. Moshe Blau,  please see

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/blau-moshe

YL
Blau, Moshe | Encyclopedia.com<https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/blau-moshe>
BLAU, MOSHE. BLAU, MOSHE (1885?1946), *Agudat Israel leader; brother of
Amram *Blau.Blau, who was born in Jerusalem, directed the Agudat Israel
office there from 1924 until his death. He served as a member of the
movement's world executive and edited its weekly Kol Yisrael ("Voice of
Israel"). From 1933 to 1945 he headed the independent, ultra-Orthodox Edah
?aredit (Orthodox community).
www.encyclopedia.com

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On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 12:09:46PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> In other words this was a bediavad solution, an eis laasos, because parents
> were refusing to send their sons to a proper cheder.  If not for that they
> would never have done it.  And where there are parents willing to send their
> sons to a proper cheder, the lesson from this story is that there should be
> one for them to send to.

Agreed. But it is also after ghettoization. And thus has little to do
with proving or disproving RSRH's claim that our norm was once otherwise,
and it's only ghettoes that forced us from a more worldly worldview
and education.

(Which is the aspect of the original Areivim conversation I brought here
to Avodah.)

Recall that we are talking about a period before the Ari and before
Chassidus. Many of the givens someone from some communities today might
think are obvious weren't revealed or lived-by yet.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. What are the various halachos concerning the use of freshly cleaned towels, bed sheets, tablecloths and handkerchiefs during the Nine Days?

A. A fresh towel may be used during the Nine Days if the towel one was using became soiled (Kitzur Hilchos Bein Hametzarim p. 10:9).

Bed sheets may not be changed during the Nine Days (Mishna Berura 551:33)
unless they are soiled. However, if a guest arrives during the Nine Days
then one may place clean sheets on the bed (Shu?t Tzitz Eliezer 13:61).

A clean tablecloth can be used on Shabbos during the Nine Days (Taz OC 551:4).

A fresh handkerchief may be used only if the old one is dirty and unusable (Shu?t Rivevos Ephraim OC 2:555).

TL
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All this story tells us is that teaching limudei chol is not actually 
assur, and where it's necessary in order to have a school at all it may 
be done.  But *nobody disputes that*, so citing it is a red herring.  Of 
*course* it is better to teach limudei chol than to shut down the 
school, or not be able to start it.  Even coeducation, with mixed 
classes in the lower grades, can be allowed if necessary, and many quite 
frum schools "out of town" do so.  But everyone will agree that that is 
bediavad; surely nobody will argue that it's lechatchila, let alone that 
it's actually desirable and should be done even when there's no pressure 
to have it!   And the same is true with limudei chol.  They're a 
compromise that schools make because parents demand it, and without them 
the children will be sent to less desirable schools.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

From

https://www.aish.com/jw/s/The-Problem-with-Jewish-Education.html

[https://media.aish.com/images/ProblemWithJewishEducation500x291.jpg]<;https://www.aish.com/jw/s/The-Problem-with-Jewish-Education.html>
The Problem with Jewish Education - aishcom<https://www.aish.com/jw/s/The-Problem-with-Jewish-Education.html>
It is true that Jewish education is not secular education anyway you take
it. And it should not be. We live in a combine Jewish secular society There
are those who live or wish to live or believe to live in only Jewish world,
and what is not specifically Jewish or Jewish enaugh is of no or less value
Good Luke to them and G... bless them For the others , we are trying to
make this world that G ...
www.aish.com

Day schools need to look introspectively and re-evaluate the mission of
Jewish education. Rabbis and teachers need to demand that the sanctity of
Torah subjects be upheld through a transmission system that is consistent
with Torah ideals. Community leaders need to reject mediocrity and object
to status quo models that aren?t designed to maximize the potential of each
student. We need to shout from the rooftops that the Jewish souls we hand
over to our schools are our future and need to be handled with the utmost
care and properly cultivated.

We need to grab hold of the ideals that have sustained us and re-imagine
Jewish education. That may mean a model that blends Torah wisdom with 21st
century tools. God gives us incredible capability to discover how to absorb
more, faster and clearer, and we should utilize those gifts to bolster
Jewish learning. Let?s be clear with our goals for Jewish education and
avoid vague mandates and meaningless public statements.

Please see the above URL for more.

YL
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