Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 60

Sun, 11 Jul 2021

• 1. Escorting the Queen (Michael Poppers)
• 2. Praying that HKBH Not Accept the Offerings of Reshaim (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 3. Torah and Secular Knowledge before Ghettoization (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Where Did The Manna Fall? (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 5. Re: Torah and Secular Knowledge before Ghettoization (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Torah and Secular Knowledge before Ghettoization (Simon Montagu)
• 7. Re: Torah and Secular Knowledge before Ghettoization (Micha Berger)
• 8. Who knows "eleven"? (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Secular Studies in Lithuanian Yeahivas (Prof. L. Levine)

In Avodah V39n59, RAMiller wrote:
> Perhaps working during the rest of the week *IS* something to celebrate.
> I would like to suggest that the essence of Motzaei Shabbos' identity is
*not* its relation to the Shabbos that just ended, but its relation to the
week that is now beginning. More specifically, Motzaei Shabbos is the
anniversary of the creation of light, the anniversary of Creation
altogether.
> Perhaps the role of Melave Malka ?s not only about escorting the Queen.
Perhaps it is also (as I had always suspected) a celebration of Melacha.
Not that we can finally do melacha "again", but it is rather a celebration
of the *beginning* of the week. A new week has begun, and it is now our
task to spend the next six days getting ready for next Shabbos - as R'
Micha wrote above.
> POSTSCRIPT: I see two problems with the above ideas. The main one is that
it is quite a departure from the traditional idea of "Escorting the Queen"
who is leaving. It answers my problems nicely, but I'd be more comfortable
with it if a similar idea was already in the seforim somewhere. Second, we
already have a mitzvah that explicitly commemorates the beginning of
Creation: the Ner. (I find it significant that we light the Ner every
single Motzaei Shabbos of the year - even on Yom Tov, even on Tisha B'Av.)
If I am correct that Melaveh Malka relates to the new week more than to the
departed Shabbos, then the Ner should be part of the Melave Malka. But it
isn't - it's part of Havdala.
> All comments and suggestions are appreciated. <
Here's an outlandish thought: *al tiqra "m'laveh Malka" ela "m'laveh
m'lacha"* -- after all, as the difference is but an *aleph*, '*im hakoleil*'
says they're equivalent!
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Moshe Rabbenu begged HKBH to not accept the PORTION of the public
sacrifice, that represented Korch and his followers?
Why?
Was he concerned that this might protect them?
Was he asking that HKBH change what was agreeable to HKBH in favour of what
Moshe Rabbenu wanted or determined to be proper?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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At 11:06 PM 7/6/2021, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
>In any case, we're talking about a historical question.  Not what ought
>to be, but what was.  Your assertion was that your preferred model of
>education was the standard among Jews, until it somehow changed because
>Jews were locked up in ghettos.   I simply don't believe that is true. I
>know of no evidence for it at all, and you have not advanced any
>evidence for it.  An essay is not evidence.
What evidence can you supply to back up 
your  assertion that Jewish education has not 
changed considerably  from the past?

We certainly know that there have been monumental 
changes in Jewish education.  The writing down of 
the mishna and then of the gemara certainly 
changed Jewish education. The invention of the 
printing press, and the resulting availability of 
seforim to the masses was another.  The printing 
of the Shulchan Aruch changed how people studied 
halacha.  The printing of the Mishna Torah did 
also. The founding of the Volozhin yeshiva is yet 
another. The availability of searchable data 
bases dealing with Torah is again a change in 
Jewish education and learning.  There are many, many more that one could list.

And your assertion that secular education was 
never a part of the elementary education given 
Jews is historically incorrect. (and please do 
not tell me that this is an essay and hence is not to be relied upon.)

From

Jewish Education in Muslim Lands available at

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-education-in-muslim-lands/

In Muslim countries, Jewish boys learned the 
whole range of Jewish and secular subjects.

Curiosity about the great body of scientific and 
philosophical knowledge avail?able in the Muslim 
world soon led to a desire among Jews to acquire 
this knowledge. To that end, Jewish boys also 
studied, again together with Muslims, the secular 
sciences. These included mathematics (alge?bra 
and geometry, Euclidean and non Euclidean, 
trigonometry, and later, rudimentary calculus), 
physics, optics, philosophy (ethics, theories of 
the soul, meta?physics; primarily Aristotelian 
philosophy and then increasingly the works of the 
great Muslim philoso?phers), music (theory), 
astronomy, and medicine. Following in the 
footsteps of Muslim philosophers, Jewish writers 
in the Muslim world? wrote on the ?classification 
of sciences,? in reality an out?line of the 
education curriculum here described.

These secular subjects, many of which today would 
be considered "advanced" study (if learned at 
all), were mastered by the age of eighteen or 
even earlier. The young pupil would learn each 
subject from a scholar who was a specialist in 
that area, and this usu?ally necessitated travel 
to distant cities and even to other lands to 
learn with the greatest authorities. Maimonides 
himself, we know, as a youth learned as?tronomy 
with students of the greatest astronomer in 
Muslim Spain, Ibn Aflah of Seville. [Maimonides 
(1138-1204) is generally acknowledged to be the 
greatest Jewish thinker, Talmudist, and codifier 
in the Middle Ages.] The student would receive a 
kind of diploma at the conclusion of his studies 
with each scholar, listing the books he had 
mastered and attesting to his proficiency.

YL








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If Moshe Rabbenu's Manna fell close to his home
and Korach and his congregation's Manna began to fall far from their door
after they declared their insubordination

why was there any doubt about who was right and who was wrong?



Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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On 7/7/21 12:46 pm, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> At 11:06 PM 7/6/2021, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
>> In any case, we're talking about a historical question.? Not what ought
>> to be, but what was.? Your assertion was that your preferred model of
>> education was the standard among Jews, until it somehow changed because
>> Jews were locked up in ghettos.?? I simply don't believe that is true. I
>> know of no evidence for it at all, and you have not advanced any
>> evidence for it.? An essay is not evidence.

> What evidence can you supply to back up your? assertion that Jewish 
> education has not changed considerably? from the past?

You are the one making an extraordinary assertion.  The onus of proof is 
on you.  No evidence is needed that our tradition of "chinuch al taharas 
hakodesh" is as it was; you are the one who asserts without evidence 
that it was the result of some mythical "ghetto walls", and was not the 
authentic way of "ruach yisrael saba".



> We certainly know that there have been monumental changes in Jewish 
> education.

No, we do not.  The examples you give are of changes in the tools 
available, not in the education itself.  It's like saying that using a 
school bus instead of having a belfer walk the children to school, or 
using electric lights instead of oil lamps, is a change in our chinuch!


> And your assertion that secular education was never a part of the 
> elementary education given Jews is historically incorrect. (and please 
> do not tell me that this is an essay and hence is not to be relied upon.)

I will tell you *exactly* that.  This is the opinion of some secular 
professor, not of a Torah scholar.  And even if it's true, it's about 
one period in the history of one community, which was criticised at the 
time, ended in the disaster of mass conversion and assimilation, and is 
not part of our mesorah at all.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 8:28 PM Zev Sero via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:

> On 7/7/21 12:46 pm, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> > And your assertion that secular education was never a part of the
> > elementary education given Jews is historically incorrect. (and please
> > do not tell me that this is an essay and hence is not to be relied upon.)
>
> I will tell you *exactly* that.  This is the opinion of some secular
> professor, not of a Torah scholar.  And even if it's true, it's about
> one period in the history of one community, which was criticised at the
> time, ended in the disaster of mass conversion and assimilation, and is
> not part of our mesorah at all.
>

Since this is a historical question, surely the opinion of a professor of
Jewish history (ignoring the ad hominem "some secular") is *more* to be
relied on than that of a Torah scholar, who by your own argument should be
studying al taharat hakodesh and is not expected to have historical
knowledge.

I don't know who the "we" in "our mesorah" are, but for myself I am proud
to say that the Torah of al-Andalus and the Muslim countries, which derives
directly from the mesorah of the Geonim of Bavel, is very much my mesorah
also. Furthermore, this is not just "one community": the author of the
linked article makes an understatement when he says that "the majority" of
Jews in the medieval period lived in Muslim countries. In the 12th century
over 90% of the Jews in the world were Sepharadim (at this period about
half of Spain was a Muslim country)
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On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 08:32:33PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> You are the one making an extraordinary assertion.  The onus of proof is on
> you.  No evidence is needed that our tradition of "chinuch al taharas
> hakodesh" is as it was; you are the one who asserts without evidence that it
> was the result of some mythical "ghetto walls", and was not the authentic
> way of "ruach yisrael saba".

Prof Levine cited RSRH, the Gra via R Barukh of Shklov and
a historian. Although admittedly the historian is speaking about the
Golden Age of Spain, and not making broad assertions about norms before
and after that golden age.

See also the Maharal, Netiv haTorah, pereq 14, who says Chazal's
problem with chokhmah Yevanis was only their philosophy, but applied
and applicable knowledge are qadosh.

In response, you're quoting idioms coined since the haskalah,
and thus since the fall of the ghetto walls; counter-reformation
rhetoric. See the entry in Chabadpedia on "chinukh al taharas haqodesh"
at <https://bit.ly/2UxiOga>.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

According to my concordance (both of them, actually) the number "eleven"
appears in the Torah six times.

Three times (Bereshis 32:23, Bereshis 37:9, Devarim 1:2) it appears as
"achad asar".
Three times (Bamidbar 7:72, Bamidbar 29:20, Devarim 1:3) it appears as
"ashtay asar".

What is the difference between these? Why use one instead of the other?

Akiva Miller
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There are those who claim that secular studies were never taught in any
Lithuanian yeshivas during the 19th century. This is simply not true.

The many of students in the Volozhin Yeshiva studied secular
subjects. From
https://muqata.blogspot.com/2008/05/closing-of-volozhin-jewish-urban-legend.html

The Muqata: The Closing of Volozhin; Jewish Urban Legend?

It's impossible to traverse Chareidi circles without hearing that the
famous Volozhin Yeshiva was closed by its Rosh Yeshiva, the "Netziv"
(Naftali Zvi Yehuda Berlin (????? ??? ????? ?????) -- because he would
rather close the Yeshiva than for his students go to University and study
secular subjects.This mantra is often repeated as a primary reason to
avoid Yeshiva University ... muqata.blogspot.com

Concerning "worldliness" of the students of Volozhin, and the value of
secular education at Volozhin, R' Epstein writes:

    Anyone with eyes in his head could see that the students of Volozhin
    were quite knowledgeable in secular studies: they took an interest
    in science, history and geography and knew many languages. In fact,
    those students who desired to pursue these disciplines succeeded
    in learning twice as much as any student at a state institution. In
    Volohzin, Torah and derech eretz walked hand in hand, neither one held
    captive by the other. It was the special achievement of the Volozhin
    student that when he left the yeshiva, he was able to converse with
    any man in any social setting on the highest intellectual plane. The
    Volohzin student was able to conquer both worlds -- the world of
    Torah and the world at large. A well-known adage among parents who
    were trying to best educate their children was, "Do you want your
    child to develop into a complete Jew, dedicated to Torah and derech
    eretz? Do you want him to be able to mingle with people and get
    along in the world? Send him to Volozhin! (page 204)

R' Epstein debunks the story that college and Volozhin could not mix, by
stating -- in direct contradiction to the chareidi myth -- that the Netziv
explicitly agreed to the introduction of secular studies to Volozhin at
the 1887 Petersburg Congress, by incorporating the study of mathematics
and the Russian language within the framework of the yeshiva program. The
amount of time and part of day when these 2 subjects were to be taught
was left entirely to the discretion of the Rosh Yeshiva. This continued
for 5 full years prior to the yeshiva's closing in 1892. (pages 207, 208)

Let me add that he yeshiva in Kelm founded by Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv
in the 1860s did teach secular subjects.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelm_Talmud_Torah
Kelm Talmud Torah - Wikipedia

Under the Leadership of Simcha Zissel Ziv. The Talmud Torah was founded
in the 1860s by Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, known as the Alter of Kelm (the
Elder of Kelm), to strengthen the study of Musar in Lithuania.. In 1872,
Rabbi Ziv purchased a plot of land and erected a building for the Talmud
Torah, which began as a primary school and soon became a secondary school.
en.wikipedia.org

The curriculum of the original Talmud Torah under Rabbi Ziv's leadership
was fairly unusual for a nineteenth-century Lithuanian yeshiva in two
respects:

1. Significant time was devoted to Musar, work on the improvement of
character traits. In most Lithuanian yeshivas, nearly the entire day
was spent studying Talmud. By contrast, at the Talmud Torah, according
to Menahem Glenn, "Musar was the chief study, while the study of Talmud
was only of minor importance and little time was devoted to it."[1]

2. In addition to Jewish subjects, students studied general subjects such
as geography, mathematics, and Russian language and literature for three
hours a day. The Kelm Talmud Torah was the first traditional yeshiva in
the Russian empire to give such a focus to general studies.[2]


[Email #2. -micha]

 From https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/kelme/kel023.html#Page24
Kelme, Lithuania (Pages 23-37)
Kelem's Jews as a Torah and spiritual People Alongside the many and varied
business pursuits of the Jews in Kelem, there was their Torah and spiritual
lives, which were very rich.

Between the two world wars, there were not only Torah schools;
additionally, there were kindergartens and schools for general education.
The children in these schools studied the same subjects as did all school
children in Lithuania and the rest of the world; such as, mathematics,
nature study, geography, history, and others. Beside these general secular
subjects, the children studied Hebrew (grammar and literature) and the
heritage of Israel (Jewish studies).

The Shulamit School
One of the oldest schools for girls was the Shulamit school of the Yavneh
movement. It was located in the house of Lieb Gershovitz. This school was
for girls whose parents wanted them to study secular and religious
subjects.

The day at this school started with the morning prayers. Prayers were said
before and after meals. The girls dressed very modestly. Besides the
general subjects, emphasis was put on Torah, Bible, and Mishnah. In
addition, the girls learned about the commandments that are especially
demanded of Jewish women, the laws of Kashrut, candle lighting on Shabbat
and on holidays, and other commandments that Jewish women must know

The Yavneh School
The school was for boys only. As at the Shulamit school, this school taught
secular studies and Jewish subjects. The Yavneh school was located in a
small Bet Midrash in a small street that was called Shul Gas by the Jews.
In back of the school was a yard that bordered on the well known Stam
family.

R. Stam was one of the founders of the Yavneh school. People from all walks
of life had their children study here, rich and poor, religious and not
religious. Some of the names of children who studied here are: Stern,
Meyerovitz, Yankelov, Broide, Yankelvitz, Koifman, Rose, Morgenstern,
Yanver, Chaluzin, and many others.

This school had four grades, from first to fourth. At the end of four
years, there were government examinations. In order to monitor the
examinations, a government overseer would arrive from Resain. Graduates
received a certificate to continue their studies in the Gymnasia.

In Yavneh, there were about one hundred students. Torah and secular studies
were taught, as we said before; i:e, Chumash and Ta'anach with Rashi
commentary, Hebrew grammar and literature. Hebrew and Yiddish authors were
studied, such as Shalom Aleichim, Mendel Mocher Seforim, Bialik,
Tchernikovsky, Fichman, Peretz, Gordon, and others. They studied geography,
general history, geography of Lithuania, nature study, mathematics, history
of the Jewish people, and others. These subjects were taught in Hebrew with
the Ashkenazi pronunciation.

<Snip>

The level of learning at Yavneh was known to be very high. The boys acquired a variety of knowledge in those four years, in an optimal way.

YL



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