Volume 39: Number 32
Fri, 09 Apr 2021
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 11:15:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] May I purchase chametz after Pesach from any
On 6/4/21 2:26 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I would suspect that you might be correct but the circumstances today
> or such that it is well known in the United States that there are
> large Jewish owned distributors and so it?s like raglayim ladavar
As far as I know the only one big enough to qualify as raglayim ladavar
is C&S, which AIUI sells its chametz through our own REMT.
I've also seen it suggested that even so one must worry about where the
distributor got its chametz, and where that person got it, etc. To me
this seems a clear application of im kein ein ladavar sof. Surely uki
davar al chezkaso; it is now bechezkas the non-Jew, so we should presume
there is no problem unless and until we have evidence otherwise. We
shouldn't have to go looking for it.
A possible comparison is RMF's theory that the gezera of chalav nochri
was made only on the last nochri in the chain of custody, and therefore
if we have eidus (or certainty so clear that it is the equivalent of
eidus) that he did not tamper with the milk then we needn't concern
ourselves with any of the previous owners, even if we know that they had
no supervision and every opportunity to tamper with it.
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name "May this year and its curses end
May a new year and its blessings begin"
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:59:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] To Atone for All our Sins
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 11:30:05AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> My only guess is that these words serve as a bookend to Maggid's start ("In
> the beginning we were idolators"), but that doesn't help much; is this
> bookend really needed, or even helpful? Any other ideas?
Couldn't the reason simply be poetic -- the list needed to have an even
number of lines to scan correctly?
In any case, seems to be a fitting segue to Rabban Gamliel, and the
glaring implication that if we don't have a qorban Pesach, we aren't
even doing Maggid in its ideal form either.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:45:18 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshe Rabenu got rich from the shivrei luchos
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 02:20:23PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> Today's Daf (Yerushalmi Shekalim 14) states that Moshe Rabenu got rich from
> the pieces of the broken luchos. This statement seems quite strange to me
> given the living conditions in the midbar....
TL;DR: RSS says this aggadita is about how to earn money -- that it should
be coming as a side effect of working on our middos.
It seems quite strange either way... Like the bit about Yaaqov going back
for pachim qetanim, but writ even larger. A means of Moshe
gaining wealth seems to be more than a shade petty and mundane use of
the sacred -- I mean, we're talking The Luchos. And talk about making one's
Torah a "qordom lachapor bahem"!?
Rav Shimon Shkop discusses this medrash in relation to a couple of
others. The full discussion of the Luchos is in the Haqadamah to Shaarei
Yosher, in the fourth paragraph as it was originally published. You can
see it in the original Hebrew together with my translation in Widen Your
Tent sec 1.4 (pp 60-65), available at
<https://www.aishdas.org/asp/ShaareiYosher.pdf#page=19>.
R Shimon asks why Moshe destroyed the First Luchos rather than put
them aside for later. His answer rests on Chazal's idea that anything
one learns from the Luchos Hashem carved would never be forgotten.
This alleviated much of Moshe's concern, because according to the
value and greatness of the person in awe/fear of Hashem and in middos,
which are the Tablet of his heart, this will be the measure by which
Heaven will give him acquisition of Torah. And if he falls from his
level, by that amount he will forget his Torah, just as our Sages
said of a number of things that cause Torah to be forgotten. Upon this
great concept our Sages told us to explain the text at the conclusion
of the Torah, "and all the great 'Mighty Hand' [and Awe-Inspiring
acts] which Moshe wrought before the eyes of all of Israel."[12]
[12] Devarim 34:12, the closing words of the Torah.
And therefore the Cheit haEigel proved the need for a different kind of
Luchos. Ones that required preperatory work on our part. Which brings
us to this section:
To my mind, one can use this idea to elaborate what our Sages
explained in Nedarim (38a)[13] [commenting] on the verse "Carve out
for yourself." Moshe only became wealthy through the extra pieces of
the Luchos. This is an amazing idea -- [is it possible that] Hashem
couldn't find any way to make Moshe wealthy except through the extras
of the Tablets? But through what we said, we can explain this.
Because of this change in how the Tablets were prepared, it provided
opportunity for those who receive the Torah to fear, to accept upon
themselves the yoke of Torah. Through this, it becomes appropriate
for anyone entering the gates of Torah to separate themselves from
all the preoccupations of the world. As they interpret the verse,
"It is not on the other side of the sea,"[14] that it is not found at
salesmen or importers.[15] However, if the First Luchos had remained,
then it would be sufficient to establish a small amount of time for
Torah, and spend most of one's time trading and buying.
For this reason, the Holy One showed Moshe as a sign to all who
accept the Torah that He would prepare their income for them through
the making of the Tablets; any "extras that are carved away" will
provide them with income.
[13] Also in Yerushalmi, Shekalim 5:2, Vilna ed. 22b.
[14] Devarim 30:13.
[15] Loosely paraphrasing Devarim Rabbah ad loc. (Nitzvim 6,
Leiberman ed.)
When it comes to our own lives, "carving the luchos" so that we can retain
the Torah we learn and embody it means working on our Yir'as Hashem and
other Middos. The side effect of such work corresponds to the piece of
sapphire / lapis lazuli Moshe sold.
Kind of like saying that we don't find win-win solutions because they
are a successfull route to making money. Instead Hashem sent Adam off to
work to give him an opportunity to become the kind of person who desires
and works toward win-win solutions in which all of humanity is better off.
(More analysis at Widen Your Tent ch. 7, in particular sec.s 7.5, 7.9.)
I admit all of this description of a nimshal is a destraction from your
question about the logistics of the mashal. But I think it's a pretty
one nonetheless.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 9th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF most appropriate?
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 13:38:32 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] May I purchase chametz after Pesach from any
Zev Zero wrote:
> > Therefore, when determining where to shop after Pesach, it is not
> > sufficient to establish that the owners of a store are not Jewish; one
> > must also investigate who supplies /chametz/ to the store as well.
>
>Why must one do so? Where does such an obligation come from? Having
>determined that the seller is not Jewish, what is the basis for
>requiring one to ask any further questions? Im kein ein ladavar sof.
My son's Rav holds that indeed ein la davar sof. He buys enough
flour shortly before Pesach time to last him until the next
Pesach. He will not eat anything made from flour that does not come
from his home. He will not drink any liquor that was made from
possible chometz, even if the liquor comes from someone who has sold
their chometz. When I asked him about this regarding liquor, he
replied, "Who knows where it has come from?"
For the record, he is a "GRAnick".
YL
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 00:41:52 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshe Rabenu got rich from the shivrei luchos
On 6/4/21 9:28 pm, Michael Poppers wrote:
> The /midrash/ quoted by RAB (see
> https://www.etzion.org.il/en/moshes-family
> <https://www.etzion.org.il/en/moshes-family>, fn6) implies that MRAH did
> not consider he had any physical property to pass on to his sons.
>
He had no *land*, being a Levi. There's no implication that he had no
money, and he must surely have left it to them, because what else could
he have done with it?
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name "May this year and its curses end
May a new year and its blessings begin"
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Michael Poppers
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:28:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshe Rabenu got rich from the shivrei luchos
In Avodah V39n31, RZS replied:
> A more interesting question: Since Moshe presumably had no particular
use for his riches, and therefore would have left a nice inheritance for
his children beyond whatever allotment they would have received in one
of the Levi'im cities, how did his grandson Yonasan become so poor that
he went to work for Micha (the bad one, not the navi)? <
The *midrash* quoted by RAB (see https://www.etzion.org.il/en/moshes-family,
fn6) implies that MRAH did not consider he had any physical property to
pass on to his sons.
P.S. From the spelling <http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0718.htm>, I
think the name was Y'honasan, not Yonasan.
All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20210406/d42bb139/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:17:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder
.
R' Danny Schoemann wrote:
> ... it's also not unreasonable to assume that they used some (no
> longer known?) instrument to calculate midnight and then announce
> it city-wide close to the actual time. or they used the stars as
> per this - https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/a/1105
To me, it is obvious that the ancients *must* have had some sort of way of
knowing when midnight occurred. If they didn't, then why would Moshe Rabenu
have worried that the Mitzrim might accuse Makas Bechoros of being
off-schedule?
Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20210406/ac319886/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 03:00:19 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] ein anu bkiin (we are not knowledgeable about
R' Asher Weiss mentioned at one of the Agudah shiurim that maybe one day he
would give a shiur on why the Rama frequently said ein anu bkiin (vs the
S"A) I've wondered about this for years and would love to hear his opinion.
Anyone have any insights?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE
ADDRESSEE. IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE. Dissemination,
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is
strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify us
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20210407/44a1a5ca/attachment-0001.html>
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:37:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder
The Mitzrim had water clocks for use at night.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_clock#Egypt
The oldest water clock of which there is physical evidence dates to
c. 1417-1379 BC, during the reign of Amenhotep III where it was used in
the Temple of Amen-Re at Karnak.[3] The oldest documentation of the
water clock is the tomb inscription of the 16th century BC Egyptian
court official Amenemhet, which identifies him as its inventor.[3][4]
These simple water clocks, which were of the outflow type, were
stone vessels with sloping sides that allowed water to drip at a
nearly constant rate from a small hole near the bottom. There were
twelve separate columns with consistently spaced markings on the
inside to measure the passage of "hours" as the water level reached
them. The columns were for each of the twelve months to allow for
the variations of the seasonal hours. These clocks were used by
priests to determine the time at night so that the temple rites and
sacrifices could be performed at the correct hour.[5] These clocks
may have been used in daylight as well.[citation needed]
They also had something called a "merkhet" or "merjet" by which they can
see when particular stars crossed a line. The name is from the Misr word
meaning "instrument of knowing". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkhet
The earliest known merkhet is far too recent, 600 bce. But that doesn't
rule out earlier versions that simply didn't survive to be found by
archologists.
It involved the use of a bar with a plumb line, attached to a wooden
handle.[3] It was used to track the alignment of certain stars which
are known as Decans or "Baktiu" in the Ancient Egyptian Language, if
they were visible, in order to approximate the time at night (10 stars
for the 10 hours of the night, with a total of 24 hours including 12
hours for the day, 1 hour for sunset, 1 hour for sunrise). In this
way, it was more efficient than other contemporary devices, such as
sundials, which were rendered useless during the dark.[4]
The "decans" were 36 groups of stars Mitzrim divided the circle of the
Zodiac into.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF judgment bring balance and harmony?
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:26:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshe Rabenu got rich from the shivrei luchos
On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 12:41:52AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> He had no *land*, being a Levi. There's no implication that he had no
> money, and he must surely have left it to them, because what else could he
> have done with it?
The medrash RMP points us to, that cited by R Amnon Bazak in "Moshe's
Family" fn 6, is Tanchuma Pinchas #11 (see
<https://www.sefaria.org/Midrash_Tanchuma%2C_Pinchas.11>). It explains
why the parashah of appointing Yehoshua as the successor follows that
of Benos Tzelafchad.
The implication Moshe draws in that medrash is that if girls can inherit
"benichsei avihem" then Moshe's children should be allowed to inherit
his kavod. There is no mention of land in particular. Given that the
starting point is "seder nachalos" (as the medrash puts it), the shift
from nachalah to nechasim may be more significant.
But I also don't see any implication that Moshe had nothing else to leave
them. Just that he wanted to leave them his kavod. Which many people,
not just a Moshe Rabbeinu, would consider the most prescious thing he
could leave them even if he were rich.
And then HQBH answers with the pasuq in Mishlei -- "notzeir te'einah
yochal piryahh." Some things have to be earned, not inherited.
(Why does the Tanchuma say "nichsei avihem", not "avihen"?)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 10th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF judgment bring balance and harmony?
Go to top.
Message: 11
From: Alexander Seinfeld
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 23:01:52 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Moshe Rabenu got rich from the shivrei luchos
Dynastic wealth is so rare there are proverbs about its scarcity:
Chinese proverb, ?Rice paddy to rice paddy in 3 generations.?
Japanese: ?Kimono to kimono in 3 generations.?
Indian: ?Sandals to sandals in 3 generations.?
British: ?Clogs to clogs in 3 generations.?
American: ?Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations.?
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/47159561.pdf
>
>A more interesting question: Since Moshe presumably had no particular
>use for his riches, and therefore would have left a nice inheritance for
>his children beyond whatever allotment they would have received in one
>of the Levi'im cities, how did his grandson Yonasan become so poor that
>he went to work for Micha (the bad one, not the navi)?
>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
------------------------------
**************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."
A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)