Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 27

Tue, 23 Mar 2021

• 1. Re: orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Preparing for the Seder This Year (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Re: A New Mitzvah at the Seder (allan.en...@mail.gmail.com)
• 4. Re: A New Mitzvah at the Seder (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: orthodox non-compliance with Covid rules (Micha Berger)
• 6. Jewish law has evolved (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Jewish law has evolved (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Jewish law has evolved (Zev Sero)
• 9. Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder (Aryeh Frimer)

.
I wrote about an
> article I just read, according to which "the Chief Rabbinate of Israel
will
> include chametz of Jews in the Diaspora who are not aware of the chametz
> sale contract..."

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> I don't see how the letter of the law says the sale is chal without the
> da'as of the maqneh.

A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi
Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef
Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or
were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that
they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha).

So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for
Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak, I'm not
going to be the one who says that the Rabbanut is wrong for choosing to do
it.

Akiva Miller
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The following is from today's OU Halacha Yomis


Q. Being that this year Shabbos is Erev Pesach when should the preparation
of the shank bone, charoses, marror, roasted egg, salt water and checking
the romaine lettuce take place?

A. Seder preparations should be done on Friday, as it is prohibited to
prepare on Shabbos for the next day. (This is known as hachana. One may not
even nap on Shabbos and say, ?I am resting now to be alert at the Seder?.
See M.B. 290.4.) While it would be permitted to prepare some of these items
on Saturday night, it would delay the start of the Seder. Much of the seder
focuses on the children, and it is important to start the seder as soon as
possible before the children fall asleep (M.B.482.1). According to the
Vilna Gaon, horseradish should always be grated immediately before the
seder so that it will be sharp. Others say it should be grated before
Shabbos and stored in a sealed jar to maintain the sharpness as much as
possible. If one forgot to prepare horseradish before Shabbos, the grating
should preferably be done with a shinui (deviation, such as grating on a
paper towel or turning the grater upside down). Romaine lettuce that
requires checking for infestation should be check
 ed before Shabbos. One must be careful to drain the lettuce very well.
 Otherwise, water might accumulate in the bags, and any parts of the
 lettuce that soaks in water for more than twenty-four hours may not be
 used for maror (M.B. 473.38). If salt water was not prepared in advance,
 it can made on Yom Tov (implication of Mishna Berurah 473:21), though some
 recommend using a shinui by putting the water in the vessel before the
 salt (Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 118:4). If charoses was not made before
 Shabbos, the fruit may be grated on Yom Tov, but the nuts should be
 prepared with a shinui (Shemiras Shabbos Kihilchoso 7:4) (such as crushing
 in a bag). No deviation is needed when adding the wine (see M.B.495:8).

It is preferable to roast the shank bone and egg before Shabbos. If roasted
on Yom Tov, they must be eaten on that day of Yom Tov. Since one may not
eat roasted meat or chicken at the seder, the shank bone that was prepared
Saturday night must be eaten at the Sunday daytime meal (MB 473:32). In
general, one may not prepare food on the first day of Yom Tov if the
intention is to consume it on the second day or after Yom Tov. (This would
constitute hachana, which is forbidden.) As such, another shank bone and
egg will have to be roasted Sunday night for the second seder, and the same
is true for the preparation of marror, charoses and salt water.

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On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 00:59, Prof. L. Levine wrote:
> I have maintained for a long time that the yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs wreck
> the Seder each year. To me it is clear from the Gemara in Pesachim that in
> the time of the Gemara young children came to the Seder not knowing what to
> expect.  They were not primed with booklets filled with divrei Torah.
> Today the children know "everything" since they are taught all sorts of
> things about the seder.
>
> I believe that Rav Shimon Schwab also felt to some extent the way I do.
...

I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average
person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos
Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish
eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa
(in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the
14th Nissan).

This would suggest short Sedarim.

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 01:58:06PM +0000, allan.en...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average
> person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos
> Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish
> eating the Korban early in the night...

Assuming they held like R Elazar ben Azariah and like R Eliezer in the
two machloqesin discussed on Berakhos 9a. R Aqiva and R Yehoshua hold
the mitzvah is until the morning. (The first machloqes is about the word
"boqer", the second is how to parse Devarim 16:6 -- do you eat kevo
hasemesh (sunset to chatzos), or until mo'eid tzesekha miMitzrayim?)

Stam Mishnah Pesachim 10:9 talks about the pesach being metamei the
hands after chatzos, because that's when it becomes nosar (TY vilna 71b,
TB 120b). Zevachim 37a states that this mishnah is according to R Aqiva.

The Rambam (Hil' Qorban Pesach 8:15) says the Pesach is only eaten
until midnight kedai leharchiq min ha'aveirah, and deOraisa it's okay
all night. So he hold like R Aqiva and R Yehoshua, with the kelal we
get from R Gamliel in 1:1 that any mitzvah that is permitted all night
deOraisa has a derabbanan making it lekhatchilah before chatzos, leharciq
min ha'aveirah.

So, whether they were very careful with a safe estimate or chatzos-ish
was good enough depended on who they held like.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
Author: Widen Your Tent      'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 11:06:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> A good starting point for sources is the lengthy footnote 158a in Rabbi
> Dovid Ribiat's "Halachos of Pesach". For example, he tells of Rav Yosef
> Eliyahu Henkin, whose mechira included the chometz of people who forgot or
> were unable to authorize the sale themselves (but only on condition that
> they would at least arrive to Rav Henkin before plag hamincha).

> So there *is* precedent to say that Zachin L'adam Shelo B'fanav works for
> Mechiras Chometz, and even if someone feels that the logic is weak...

I did't have that big of a problem with the idea of invoking ZlASbF,
where the person wasn't going to get hana'ah from the chameitz. Like
the people going to RYEH last minute before Pesach. Or my example of
someone in a coma.

But if people are alive and well and keeping their chameitz around and
don't even know it is sold, it isn't a pure zekhus to sell it. They want
their chameitz to use it.

So, I don't think this precedent addresses my discomfort with the idea.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Never must we think that the Jewish element
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   in us could exist without the human element
Author: Widen Your Tent      or vice versa.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch

From a letter to the editor:
Although abortion is not necessarily considered to be an act of murder, it
is nonetheless prohibited in accordance with Halakha (Jewish law). The
statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is
incorrect, as well. Any modern ruling is based on our teachings that go
back to our receiving the Torah at Mount Sinai. The laws that we follow are
g-d given and not something that the Jewish people came up with in their 40
years in the desert.
The author clearly has no grasp on our true heritage and unfortunately feels that she can opine in an area where she has no expertise.

Me- I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of
the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is
incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way
not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that
might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts?

CKVS
Joel Rich

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On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 02:46:28PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness
> of the statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so,"
> is incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a
> way not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground)
> that might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts?

There are cases where halakhah grows to cover new situations. In many
of them we could have extrapolated very different pesaqim for the new
from what exists already. Like, in the case of electricity on Shabbos.

So, halakhah grows.

Changes in facts on the ground don't drive an "evolution" of halakhah.
They're really just a non-obvious case of the above. The whole point
of such changes isn't that we switched sides on a machloqes, but that
the side chosen in the past doesn't work in the new case. So we need
to grow new halakhah for the new situation. Even if on most levels it
feels like we're doing the same thing but with a new pesaq.

Like educable deaf-mutes. We didn't do away with din cheireish. And anyone
uneducable because they can neither hear nor talk would qualify. We just
don't have too many people like that any more. (RHS, for example,
includes the pesi, the sane but intellectually diabled, as cheireish not
shoteh. With implications (e.g.) WRT gittin after brain injury.)




And then there are cases of actual evolution, where we are following
new pesaqim. Halakhah evolves but according kelalei pesaq. Of course,
kelalei pesaq are themselves subject to pesaqim, so they could evolve as
well. And precedent isn't the only kelal in pesaq. Or, if precedent shifts
unconsciously, mimetically. Like an increase in the number of people who
just take it for granted that they should look to the soft-stringencies
(baal nefesh yachmir and such) in the MB for their rulings rather than
the MB's pesaqim or the AhS's. Or RMF grows in esteem, and LORs shift
from R Henkin's pesaqim to spending more time with IM. The publishing
(and new editions) of Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhasa similarly changed
which pesaqim the LOR spends time analyzing, and which get accepted. So,
rulings can in principle change.




That was a very legal description.

R/Dr Moshe Koppel convinced me of a very Rupture-and-Reconstruction-esque
understanding of how halakhah evolves, in which dinim are more like laws
of a language.

So, at Har Sinai, we didn't need as many pesaqim. We were fully emersed
in the halachic language, and had a native speaker's ear for what sounds
right. And a good poet, a navi, can know just how and when the rules
can be occasionally bent or even more rarely broken. But as we lose
that culture we become more like English as a second language students,
who need more rules. (And we have no idea what's valid poetic license.)

And so, as we lose culture halakhah gains formality and rigidity. A
steady shift from a mimetic "sounds right" to a textual law book. Until
a rupture can cause a major step in this progression. Moshe dies, laws
are lost, Osniel ben Kenaz is meyaseid them again. Numerous dinim were
similarly codified by Anshei Keneses haGedolah, this is R/Dr Koppel's
take on shakhechum vechazar veyasdum. And then we needed a mishnah, an
actual structured code to memorize. Then shas, then writing them down...
then rishonim wrote codes, and to add my own example -- the way the AhS
and then MB were embraced.

That is a kind of evolution where the range of valid practices narrow
for a situation that didn't change nor did we learn more about the
situation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   others come to love him very naturally, and
Author: Widen Your Tent      he does not need even a speck of flattery.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook

"Evolved" implies an improvement, to a form more adapted to survival and 
therefore better.  The Jewish view of the way halacha has changed over 
the years is one of devolution; both when we become more lenient because 
we don't care as much, and when we become stricter because we need it to 
correct our tendency to leniency, or because we have lost the knowledge 
on which our ancestors' leniency depended ("ein anu beki'in").


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder. After all,  Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat.
I turned to Rabbi Eli Gersten who wrtites the OU's Halacha Yomis Column this very question and I forward his answer with his permission.

Question:
Regarding: Halacha Yomis - Prepping The Seder Plate
Since Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often permitted on Shabbat, why can't Hakhanot for the Seder be done on Shabbat?
Yiyasher Kochacha for your informative and lucid articles
Chak Kasher, Bari ve-Sameach
Aryeh

Answer:
Yes, and No.
See below what the Chayei Adam [Hilkhot Shabbat U-Moadim, sec. 153:6] writes about being maichen on Shabbos or Yomtov for a davar Mitzvah.
There are many rules. Only for a dvar mitzvah, and even then only partial
hachana, and done with a shinuy, and not close to end of Shabbos, so it is
not obvious...

??? ??? ??? ?-? (????? ??? ???????) ??? ??? ???? ?
?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????
?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ?????
????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????. ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ?????
?? ??????, ??????? ???? ???, ??? ????. ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ???? (?????
?? ??? ???? ?"? ???? ???' ??"? ???? ?' ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????
????? ??? ?' ???? ???? ????? ???????? ?"? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???
???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????"? ????? ???? ?? ?' ?"? ????? ?? ?????
??' ??"? ?? ?????? ??' ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??"?), ??? ?? ????
????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ???? ????. ??? ???? ?????"? ????? ??"? ??"?
???"? ????? ????? ??????? ????, ?? ??????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ????
???? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ??? ????? ??"? ??
???? ??' ???? ??"? ?"?. ???? ?? ??"? ??"? ?? ??"? ????? ????? ??"? ?????
????? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????. ????? ????
?????? ????? ??????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ??
 ??. ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???, ???? ????? ??? ??? ???
 ???? ??? ??????, ??? ?? ?? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????, ???
 ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????, ??
 ????. ???? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ????,
 ????. ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????.


Rabbi Eli Gersten

Rabbinic Coordinator

212-613-8222-phone

Gerst...@ou.org<mailto:Gerst...@ou.org>

Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL
E-mail (office): Aryeh.Fri...@biu.ac.il

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