Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 17

Wed, 24 Feb 2021

• 1. Re: Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Having Mishaloach Manos Delivered vis Amazon (mi...@aishdas.org)
• 4. Re: Does Rosh Chodesh have Kedusha? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Prayers That The Tzibbur Does Not Say (Jay F. Shachter)
• 6. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. Waiving mourning practices (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Birchat Haorchim (Rich, Joel)

.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> The SA requires two manos, not two foods. Two foods, or the
> AhS's version of two berakhos, is minhag.
>
> Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your
> practice. Say I would choose to give a salad and croutons for
> one. Presumably it is likely the person would put the croutons
> into the salad, and I only gave one maneh!

Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very
clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food."

Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But
two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is
considered as two??" He makes no mention of the size of these pieces; if I
give a nice-size portion of meat, and then a second portion just like it,
it doesn't count, because it needs to be TWO TYPES of food.

The AhS quotes the Rambam as writing, "two portions of meat, or two types
of food, or two types of tavshil." [Note the change in language: Rambam
used the word "manos" for the meat, but "minim" for food and tavshil.] AhS
concludes that "His writing 'two types' forces you to say that when he
wrote 'two portions of meat' he meant 'of two types'. Or. maybe it was a
printer's error and it should have said 'two types of meat' just like 'two
types of food'."

In your scenario, where I gave someone a bowl of salad, and a second bowl
of croutons, this is surely two separate foods, and I am yotzay. If the
recipient chooses to mix them together, that is his doing, but I'm already
yotzay.

An interesting variant of that scenario would be where I already mixed the
salad and croutons together and *then* gave it to him. Is this a single
food with which I am NOT yotzay (though I could be if I also gave a second,
*different* salad)? Or perhaps, maybe the one salad is still considered to
be several foods, such that I *can* be yotzay with it? [[ The AhS MIGHT
have written: "One has to send two types of food ... and a mixture of two
types doesn't hurt. Just because he mixed them, it is considered as one?? ]]

One thing RMB certainly agree on is: CYLOR!

Akiva Miller
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At 03:57 PM 2/22/2021, Micha Berger wrote:
>Which raises a question I would CYLOR before following your practice. Say
>I would choose to give a salad and croutons for one. Presumably it is
>likely the person would put the croutons into the salad, and I only gave
>one maneh!

So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I 
made a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh.

I think not!

The salad and croutons are 2 different things.  They have two 
different brochos,  even if combined.

YL

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 11:37:09PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Do you have a source for this distinction? The Aruch Hashulchan is very
> clear that "two manos" DOES mean "two types of food."

> Aruch Hashulchan 695:14 writes: "One has to send two types of food ... But
> two pieces of a single type doesn't help. Just because he cut them, it is
> considered as two??" ...

In se'if 13 he says "uba'inan shetei manos... veyotz'in be'echad". Which
being darshened from the word "rei'eka" would seem to mean 1 person
(getting the 2 manos) except he doesn't get to the number

And se'if 15 talks about the size of a maneh, "ke'ein chatikhah
hara'ui lehiskhabeid".

All that aside, yes, the AhS comes down on one side. In this case, he
is defending common practice against the SA se'if 4. For all the AhS's
saying the Rambam must have originally been "minim" across the board
rather than "manos", the Mechaber pasqens 2 manos. And there is no hagah
from the Rama saying otherwise.

Which is, again, why I think we are in CYLOR territory.


On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 5:56pm -0500, Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net> wrote:
> So according to you if someone sent me a roll and and cold cuts and I made
> a sandwich, then that would also be on maneh.

No, I am saying it could well be that that's the halakhah, so CYLOR.
What you consider obvious doesn't seem so when you look at the sources.

> I think not!

> The salad and croutons are 2 different things.  They have two different
> brochos,  even if combined.

According to the SA, the halakhah speaks of two servings.

The fundamental halakhah doesn't care about "two berakhos", and according
to the SA, not even whether it's two kinds of food. Giving two hamburgers
may not be our minhag, but it is clear that both the SA and the Rama would
say you are yotzei. (OC 695:4) The Arukh haShulchan (se'if 15) talks about
the manos being generous, so you can't be yotzei giving just two kezeisim.

So yes, if you give a hamburger and a bun, you could very well not be
yotzei. That's exactly the logic. You say "I think not!" but why not? Do
you have a maqor? That's why I would get an expert opinion before doing
the same.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 We look forward to the time
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   when the power to love
Author: Widen Your Tent      will replace the love of power.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF              - William Ewart Gladstone

On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 09:15:34AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> But that is missing on Yom Tov. It turns out that the last bracha on the
> haftara on Yom Tov has the same "problem" that I saw in the Musaf of Rosh
> Chodesh. Perhaps I am mistaken? Maybe it's okay for the chasima of a bracha
> to differ somewhat from the content of the body of that bracha? Maybe it is
> sufficient that they are both about the *specialness* of the day, and I'm
> putting too much emphasis on the *kedusha* of the day.

The last phrase of any berakhah (that isn't just a one sentence "Barukh")
is supposed to be me'ein hachasimah. But it can drift all over the place
in between. Any berakhah that covers multiple topics has to be a berakhah
arukhah -- barukh at beginning and last sentence; or semuchah lechaverta
and thus the first barukh can be omitted. (The AhS invokes this idea to
explain the structure of Birkhas haZon (the first berakhah of bentchen).

The middle berakhah on Shabbos, Yom Tov, or Rosh Chodesh is apparently
a berakhah arukhah hasemukhah lechaverta. Therefore, it is allowed to
have multiple topics, never mind insisting it closely match the chasimah.

As long as the close is me'ein hachasimah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and it flies away.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                          - Rav Yisrael Salanter

> 
> ... I am very surprised to find a tefillah where the individual has
> free rein, but the tzibur is restricted.  Usually it is the other
> way around.  There are many tefilos which may be said *only*
> b'tzibur, and often only under certain circumstances.  For example,
> some tefilos are said only on certain days, and some are said only
> by the chazan.  Here we have a case where the tzibur may say it on
> only one particular day, yet the individual can say it anytime.
> 
> Are there any other examples of this?
>

There are plenty of examples of prayers that may be recited by
individuals, and that may not be recited by the tzibbur.

For example, suppose you have asked Sarah Pippik to marry you, and she
has nodded her head and said she'll get back to you on that.
Unquestionably, until you hear back from her with her answer, you are
going to be inserting a private prayer three times a weekday into the
benediction of Shomea` Tefillah, that she say yes to your proposal.
Or maybe you will put your prayer into Xonen Hadda`ath, if you think
that not marrying you indicates a failure of intelligence on her part.
Or maybe you will put your prayer into Rofeh Xoley `Amo Yisrael, if
you are marrying Rn. Pippik because you need a kidney transplant, and
she has the same blood type as you.  The point is that individuals are
allowed to utter certain kinds of prayers, that the tzibbur is not
allowed to say.

Now, there are special laws about rain, such that, if an entire
community needs rain, a tzibbur is allowed to ask for it.  But that is
only because our Sages have enacted laws permitting it.  Otherwise it
would be forbidden.  Thus, if there is a local glut of unmarried
people, and the tzibbur needs shiddukhim, the shliax tzibbur may not
insert a prayer for shiddukhim in the repetition of the `Amidah.  Or
if the community is suffering from, oh let's say, a plague of frogs,
the shliax tzibbur is not allowed to insert into the repetition of the
`Amida a prayer asking God to do anything about it, unless a good
strong rain would sweep the frogs back into the river where they came
from.  It's just not the kind of prayer, that the tzibbur is allowed
to make.

Unrelated to the above, in your earlier post, you mispronounced
"seiruv".

                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 North Whipple Street
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. Is one permitted to bathe, take a haircut or listen to music on Taanis Esther?

A. The Meiri (Sefer Magen Avos 23) writes that Taanis Esther is different
than other communal fast days. Other communal fast days commemorate events
of tragedy, while Taanis Esther is a day of celebration, for on that day,
the Jews of old fasted before going to war (Mishna Berura 686:2), merited
to have Hashem listen to their plea and overcame their enemies.

This contrast is reflected in the following halacha: The Gemara (Megila 5a)
states that when the 9th day of Av falls on Shabbos, the fast of Tisha B?av
is delayed until Sunday. We do not observe the fast before Shabbos because
one should postpone, rather than advance, the commemoration of tragedy. In
contrast, when the 13th day of Adar falls on Shabbos, Taanis Esther is
observed on the previous Thursday. We may advance the fast since it
commemorates a joyous event.

By the same token, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l (Halichos Shlomo, Purim
18:6) contrasts Taanis Esther with other fast days with respect to bathing
and cutting hair. Although bathing is technically permitted on all fast
days except Tisha B?av (Shulchan Oruch 550:1), and hair cutting is
acceptable on Tzom Gedalia and Asara B?teves, some are stringent and do not
bathe and take haircuts on communal fast days, in keeping with the sad
character of the day . This is not the case with Taanis Esther, where
everyone agrees that bathing and haircuts are permissible.

Rav Zilberstein, shlita (Chashukei Chemed Megila 16b) writes that one may
even listen to music. However, Rav Elyashiv, zt?l is quoted in the sefer
Ashrei HaIsh (Vol. 3:41:20) as saying that it is inappropriate to listen to
music. Taanis Esther is also a day of forgiveness, and music will detract
from the solemnity of the day.

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Interesting article by R' S. Brody in the upcoming Hakira concerning
parents waiving their "right" to mourning after shloshim. My question,
almost partially addressed in the article, is assuming such a waiver is
effective, is it what HKB"H wants of us?
Such a waiver certainly would help the children avoid difficult issues, not
just event related such as weddings, but every day issues as well.
Assumedly they could still choose to observe the strictures they choose but
from a strictly halachic basis will their reward (as a stand in for HKBH's
happiness) be as great? From a hashkafic viewpoint is the waiver sending
the right message?

KT
Joel Rich

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Has anyone heard of an explanation why for so many years many ashkenazim
did not say birchat haorchim in the birchat hamazon (assumedly relying on
the harachaman to do the job) and only recently was it added back into the
standard text of birchonim?
KT
Joel Rich

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