Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 12

Wed, 10 Feb 2021

• 1. Between Science and Torah (Prof. L. Levine)
• 2. Re: What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: What beracha does one recite on coffee and tea? (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? (Micha Berger)
• 6. The Proper Method of Torah Research (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. Re: Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? (Zev Sero)
• 8. Honoring Parents (Prof. L. Levine)
• 9. belief based on personal experience (Rich, Joel)

What precisely is the relationship between science and Torah?  Rav Shimon
Schwab, ZT"L, deals with this issue in his commentary on Shemos 19:20 in
Rav Schwab on Chumash. I have posted what he wrote at

https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/science_torah.pdf

YL
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On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19
> 
> Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei
> Teshuva's day...

We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the
distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate,
liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their
usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature.

As I see it, if cacao is shehakol in the ST's day, the same would be true
of a chocolate bar in ours. Both are the usual form of consumption for the
respective times. (If anything, the bar is MORE processed than the drink.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> The AhS considers tea with sugar to be chamar medinah -- but
> only with sugar. Gives you a sense of the price of sugar in
> Litta.

It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you
might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude
unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of
drinking it.

In fact, he contrasts this with several other drinks (seltzer, lemonade, or
water with honey mixed in) which are merely "mayim metukanim - enhanced
water", and he specifically says that what makes "teh matok" different is
that (a) it was cooked, and (b) it is not *called* "water". My conclusion
is that the AhS doesn't seem to care whether the tea is sweet or not.

Akiva Miller
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On 7/2/21 5:25 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 06, 2021 at 08:45:42PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>>> https://www.sefaria.org/Sha'arei_Teshuvah_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.202.19
>> Edible chocolate was invented around 1800, and did not exist in the Shaarei
>> Teshuva's day...

> We started by talking about coffee and tea. I am not sure how the
> distinction you are making is relevant. In either case, hard chocolate,
> liquid chocolate, or original case of coffee are being consumed in their
> usual way, which is quite different than the form they had in nature.

There is a fundamental difference between food and drink, which is the 
entire basis of those who say shehakol on tea, coffee, or hot chocolate. 
In the case of tea and coffee there is deemed to be no substance of the 
leaf/berry in the water. In the case of chocolate the sevara given to 
say shehakol is the analogy to the gemara's "shesisa".  Shesisa, even if 
it is merely a thick liquid, is mezonos; kol shekein if it's solid.  The 
same should be true of chocolate.  How processed it is should be 
irrelevant, since this is the normal way the fruit is eaten, just like 
ginger.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 08:29:15PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> It's true that the AhS 296:13 does mention "teh matok - sweet tea", but you
> might be reading too much into that. He doesn't specifically exclude
> unsweetened tea. It might simply be that this was the common way of
> drinking it.

Well, in OC 89:23 he notes that some prohibit drinking tea with sugar
before davening -- but only wwith sugar. He is unsure why they would say
that, since the sugar is just to give the hot drink a little flavor. How
does that make sweatened tea "akhilah"? Others allow tea drunk through
a sugar cube, but not if the sugar is dissolved in the tea. (One of the
places where the AhS cites the MB.)

There, he does conclude "ve'eino iqar". I am just pointing out that
elsewhere in the AhS, tea and tea with sugar are different things. So,
I wouldn't just assume he added the word "matoq" here simply because
that's the norm.

(In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in
Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. I would
want evidence it even was their norm. In siman 89, he gives the din for
tea but if the tea is with sugar.... As opposed to if the se'if saw a
need to call the first case "tea without sugar" or "unsweatened tea".)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
Author: Widen Your Tent      in fact, of our modesty.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

The following is from the fourth footnote to RSRH's Eighteenth Letter in the Nineteen Letters.

A word here about the proper method of Torah research. Two revelations are
before us: nature and Torah. The same method of investigation must apply to
both. In studying nature, all phenomena confront us as given data, and we can
only endeavor to find the laws applying to them, and their interrelation, a
posteriori-by starting from these phenomena themselves. The proof of the
truth of your theory, or rather of the probability of its correctness, can be
provided only by nature itself, since you will have to test your theory against
nature's phenomena in order to be able to state with the highest possible
degree of certainty that the facts indeed confirm your assumptions, i.e., that
every phenomenon observed can be explained according to your theory. In
nature, one single contradicting fact can invalidate your theory, and you must,
therefore, make sure to obtain as much information as possible about the
phenomena that you are studying, so that, as far as possible, you will have all
the facts at your disposal. Moreover, even where we are not able to ascertain
the laws and interrelations governing any given phenomenon, the phenomenon
itself remains a fact.

All this applies equally to the study of Torah. Just as heaven and earth are
facts, so, to us, are the Torah21 and its commandments. In the Torah, just as
in nature, the ultimate cause is God. In the Torah, just as in nature, no fact
can be denied, even though we may comprehend neither its cause nor its
relation to others; instead, we must persevere, in the Torah as in nature, to
trace God's wisdom which manifests itself in them. In studying the Torah,
then, we must begin by accepting the Torah's commandments in their
entirety as given facts; we must study them and their relationship to each
other and to the aspects of life that they govern. Then we must test the
soundness of our theories by their conformity with the provisions of the Law;
and, here too, the highest possible degree of certainty is obtained if everything
fits our theory. Moreover, just as the phenomena of nature remain facts even
though we may not have found their causes or interrelationships, and just as
their existence does not depend on the results of our investigation-rather, the
reverse is true-so, too, the commandments of the Torah are law even if we
have not uncovered the cause and interrelationships of even a single one, and
our fulfillment of the commandments in no way depends on the results of our
investigation. Only the commandments belonging to the category of Edos,
which seek to convey insights and to affect the emotions, remain incomplete
without adequate investigation.

YL
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On 8/2/21 4:03 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> (In fact, on a metzi'us level, I don't think sugar was cheap enough in
> Litta for one to assume one was getting sugar with their tea. 

Sugar was quite expensive there, while across the border in Galicia it 
was cheap.  That's why Litvaks make their gefilte fish and luction kugel 
salty and Galicianers make them sweet.

The Baal Hatanya, who lived on his pay as the town maggid, first in 
Liozna and then in Liadi, once asked the town council for a raise, 
because after much thought he had come to the conclusion that sugar is a 
necessity and not a luxury (hechrochios and not mosros).


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

Please see the article at

https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/
[https://vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Rabbi-Yosef-Shalom-Elyashiv-1024x640-1.jpg]<;https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/>
Honoring Parents, and a New Interpretation from Rav Elyashiv Zt"l - Vos Iz
Neias<https://vosizneias.com/2021/02/09/honoring-parents-and-a-new-interpretation-from-rav-elyashiv-ztl/>
by Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com Last week, parshas Yisro, we leined the
aseres hadibros. In them, of course, is the Mitzvah of Kivud Av v?Aim ?
honoring one?s parents. The Torah itself assures us that one who is careful
with it will merit long life ? something very apropos during this pandemic.
The Talmud [?]
vosizneias.com
From this article


Speech ? Children must speak softly to their parents, in a calm tone, and
using the most honorable terminology and modes of address. (See Kiddushin
30a,b). On the other hand, if one speaks abusively to one?s parents he or
she will earn a place in Gehenam, rachmana litzlan.

Action ? The Mishna Brurah (301:4) indicates that, if possible, it is a
Mitzvah to greet one?s parents every day. There are also numerous actions
that are obvious that must be done regularly, for example, taking out the
garbage for them regularly ? without being asked; offering them drinks or
food; requesting if there is anything they need in terms of shopping, mail,
etc.

See the above URL for more.

YL
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On belief based on personal experience:
A pure rationalist would separate himself from his own experience and
analyze starting with how many people there are, how many situations
similar to his own,..... and determine based on the entire sample space
(ex. one person has a dream that someone they know got sick, and they
actually did. analysis-how many dreams were dreamt in the world, how many
about friends, how many sick, how many did get sick...)

Me-How do we take this into account in our emunah process?

KT
Joel Rich

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