Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 6

Wed, 27 Jan 2021

• 1. Re: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Re: Tu?bishvat is the Rosh Hashanah (new year) for trees. What does this mean? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: May one add matzah meal or pieces of bread to a (Micha Berger)

There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini:
1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli
sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is
permitted even though it cooks.
2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in
general a kli sheini doesn't cook.

Many of the Rishonim state explicitly that kli sheini ayno mevashel is a
metzius. The Rashba there in Shabbos 34b, the Yeraim quoted by many other
rishonim and others. Tosafos there also seems to say this because they
explain the difference between a kli rishon and a kli sheini based on
metzius, that a kli rishon has hot walls while a kli sheini doesn't.

The gemara about kalei habishul seems to support this position. The simple
reading of the gemara (39a and other places) is that there are certain
things that are easily cooked and you are chayav  if you cook them in a kli
sheini. If it was a din then how wcould you be chayav by kalei habishul?

None of the Rishonim (that I saw) say explicitly that it is a din (however
see Tosafos shabbos 42a where they discuss a hot bath and other Rishonim
(Ramban, Ritva) which could be interpreted this way). However the Ohr
Sameach (hilchos shabbos perek 9) goes with this idea explicitly, and
explains it as follows. He says that the gemara states that cooking in
halacha is defined as by fire or the result of a fire. He says that a kli
sheini is so far removed from the fire that it can't be called toldos
haeish  and therefore is not considered cooking in halacha. This is similar
to the din that cooking in the sun is not considered cooking. He explains
that kalei habishul is a gezera because people do cook kalei habishul in a
kli sheini therefore they prohibited it m'drabbanan.

There are a number of practical differences in halacha regarding this
question, I will mention 2 of them:
1. If the kli sheini is really hot. The Chayei Adam based on a Rambam in
Maaser Sheni holds that if the kli sheini is boiling hot (if you touch it
you will get burned) then the rule of  kli sheini ayno mevashel doesn't
apply. This is clearly going with 2, that it is a metzius, according to the
Ohr Sameach it shouldn't matter.
2. Is there a kula of kli shlishi? The Mishna Berura quotes a Pri megadim
who is meikel by a kli shlishi by kalei habishul, that you would be
permitted to put them in a kli shlishi. The Chazon Ish and others disagree.
they hold that there is no difference between a kli sheini and a kli
shlishi based on Tosafos, both have cold walls and both have the same
amount of heat. If you hold like 2 then the kula of kli shlishi makes no
sense. However according to the Ohr Sameach that kli sheini ayno mevashel
is a din and the humra by kalei habishul is only a din drabbanan, then it
makes sense to say that the gezera was only made on a kli sheini and not on
a kli shlishi.

At first glance opinion 1 (din) seems much more logical then 2. It seems
very difficult to say that the gemara is telling us a metzius without
qualifying it. If the Chayei Adam is right how come the gemara didn't warn
us about it. The Chayei Adam's scenario is not so uncommon and leads to an
issur d'oraysa. The gemara's statement lends itself to be interpreted as a
general principle in halacha not a metzius.
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I don't know each stage of Tu biShvat's evolution. Was it always a holiday?
In the gemara, Tu biShvat is more like a shiur -- how do you know which
fruit go to which terumos uma'aseros?

But by the end of the geonim, tachanun was skipped on Tu biShvat. So,
even if it wasn't always a holiday, it started turning into one pretty
early. Well before the *publication* (so to speak) of the Zohar. So it's
not of Qabbalistic roots.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
Author: Widen Your Tent      'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 04:27:08PM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> There are 2 possible approaches to understanding kli sheini:

There are two basic approaches to understanding halakhah: Brisk and Telzh.

> 1. It is a din. In other words the halacha states that cooking in a kli
> sheini is not called cooking. We find for example that bishul bchama is
> permitted even though it cooks.

Brisk.

> 2. It is a metzius, the gemara is telling us an empirical fact, that in
> general a kli sheini doesn't cook.

Telzh.

Except that I would say, "it isn't mevasheil". You cannot assume bishul
has the same limits as cooking. We are talking about a tradition in
which a bat is a kind of owf.

Let's look at ofos for a second, because I find it easier to illustrate
my proposed general rule with a noun.

We say that an "owf" is a "bird", but that's really only shorthand. One
syllable is much easier to teach with than having to say and write
"flying living thing".

There is still an empirical fact being described. One needn't say that
owf, e.g. in the laws of owfos tehoros, is just a category with no
empirical basis. But the fact isn't the one we have an easy at-hand
English word. Wrong culture.


Similarly here, bishul needn't be some Brisker chalos sheim. But it could
be a range of physical changes in a substance defined by the use of fire
and not e.g. toledos hachamah. I mean, Chazal knew what changes chamei
Teveriah were capable of, they just didn't know how the hot springs
were hot. But they still made whether it is mevasheil depend on whether
it was heated by the sun or by volcanic processes

When you get to a keli sheini, you are at quite a remove from the fire,
although the heat must be fire-derived heat. OTOH, when you are dealing
with kalei bishul, you are closer to the idea of trigerring a physical
change.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 What we do for ourselves dies with us.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   What we do for others and the world,
Author: Widen Your Tent      remains and is immortal.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Albert Pine


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