Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 118

Wed, 30 Dec 2020

• 1. Re: Where is the Molad announced for? (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Vizhnitz Rebbe Asks Chasidim To Make Kiddush This Shabbos Between 6 And 7 (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Vizhnitz Rebbe Asks Chasidim To Make Kiddush This Shabbos Between 6 And 7 (Micha Berger)
• 4. Nittel Nacht Is An Old Ashkenaz Minhag (Prof. L. Levine)
• 5. Re: Vizhnitz Rebbe Asks Chasidim To Make Kiddush This Shabbos Between 6 And 7 (Micha Berger)
• 6. Christmas Eve: Is it a Time for Torah Study? || Dr. Marc Shapiro (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. Re: Nittel Nacht Is An Old Ashkenaz Minhag (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Who sent the wagons? (Akiva Blum)
• 9. mechiras yosef (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Priorities (Rich, Joel)

On 27/12/20 10:17 am, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> 
> But the *real* question on the table isn't whether or not *we* should 
> care which meridian the molad is based on. Rather, when Rosh Chodesh was 
> declared by the Beis Din after interrogating the witnesses, did that 
> Beis Din care about such things? It is obvious to me that they must have 
> cared, and known, and included these calculations in the verification of 
> the testimony of the witnesses. The logic is quite simple: Suppose the 
> molad is calculated?to be at 7:00 PM, based on the Yerushalayim 
> meridian. If someone says he saw it in Yerushalayim at 7:05 local time, 
> he can be believed. But if he claims to have seen it in Bavel at 7:05 
> local time, he should not be believed, because the calculated molad had 
> not yet occurred.


This doesn't work, because the calculated "molad" is the conjunction of 
the *average* moon with the *average* sun, both of which are imaginary 
bodies.  When witnesses come they report having seen the *actual* moon, 
which may well have already had its conjunction, and be visible *before* 
the average moon's conjunction.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

On 27/12/20 6:03 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> And we certainly aren't so subservient to their calendar that we would 
> skip a leap year in 1900 or in 2100, which is why there is a slight 
> drift over the centuries, for which days of December are the switchover.

Actually we probably would, if the Gregorian adjustment had been in 
effect when we adopted this practice.

The reason we do it this way, even though we have always known it to be 
imprecise, is probably because it's easy to keep track of via the 
Goyishe calendar.  We switch on Nov 23 (or 24 if it's going to be a leap 
year -- and remember that at that time the year didn't change until 
*after* February), and we say birkas hachama whenever March 26 is on a 
Wednesday in the year after a leap year.  Easy and simple.

Then the goyim went and switched the calendar on us and made it not so 
simple.  Almost every century we have to adjust those dates to keep up. 
But had they changed their calendar *before* we decided to rely on it, 
we'd probably have decided to rely on the new and improved calendar instead.



> So why on earth does this practice (about kiddush between 6 and 7) bow 
> down to each?state government's policy on how to set one's clock? Even 
> when daylight time is in effect?!?!

The answer is that it doesn't.  I don't know who claimed that people 
ignore daylight savings time (i.e. keep 6 to 7 DST in the summer, which 
is "really" 5 to 6), and I don't believe it.  I do believe -- indeed I 
know -- that there are many who ignore the adjustment for railroad time, 
but that is simply out of ignorance of the metzius, and when the truth 
is explained to them they change their practice.


> But maybe that's *not* how Mars works; maybe Mars affects the entire
> earth at the same time, beginning at some point and lasting for 60
> minutes. If so, then we need to ask "From six to seven o'clock *where*?"
> and adjust accordingly (very similar to the current thread about where
> the Molad is calculated from).

This is not viable, because the Gemara describe these hours in Bavel, 
and doesn't say that in EY they're different, and the Maharil in Europe 
uses them unadjusted.


[Quoting a post I never saw:]
> Those who are followers of the Besht, etc accept this at face value

This has nothing to do with chassidus or the Baal Shem Tov -- it's 
minhag Ashkenaz as recorded by the Maharil, and expanded on by the Magen 
Avraham and the Machtzis Hashekel, none of whom were chassidim.  If most 
non-chassidim have stopped practicing it, that needs to be explained.

But I find it curious that, at least in my experience, people who do 
practice it think of it as a negative, *not* to make kidush during the 
Mars hour, and therefore usually delay kidush till after that hour, 
whereas the original source, the Maharil, expresses it as a positive, 
*to* make kidush during the Jupiter hour, *before* the Mars hour.

Also, it seems to me that the Maharil's language (although I've never 
seen it inside, but only as quoted by others) seems to imply that he 
thought it worked by sha'os z'manios, i.e. that Mars always rules the 
"hour" after sunset", and therefore the minhag is to accept Shabbos 
early and make sure to make kidush before sunset.  But as far as I know 
everyone who practices this says it works by sha'os hashavos, just like 
molad zaken does.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 10:25:07AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> Actually we probably would, if the Gregorian adjustment had been in effect
> when we adopted this practice.

> The reason we do it this way, even though we have always known it to be
> imprecise, is probably because it's easy to keep track of via the Goyishe
> calendar.  We switch on Nov 23 (or 24 if it's going to be a leap year -- and
> remember that at that time the year didn't change until *after* February),
...

If this were so, wouldn't it be even easier to just make it a consistent
Nov 23, rather than knowing that later that year would be a leap day?

Not that it actually was the same year by around Hillel and Shammai's day.
The New Year in Rome was moved from a year that ended on Teminalia
(23 Feb) back in a time when Rome had 10 fixed months, leap months,
and a mess that contemporary theories disagree about the details of.
By the time we get to the Julian calendar, February was the following
Julian year from whenever we started saying vesein tal umatar.

Also, tequfas Shemu'el was named for a resident of Nahardaa and we are
talking about its use for when people in Bavel should change the nusach.
So, the relevant local non-Jews were using the Zoroastrian calendar,
not the Julian one. During Shemu'el's lifetime or so, Arashir I,
the founder of the Sasanian Empire, took the year from 360 days, 30
per month, to a 365 day year by adding 5 extra Gatha days not in any
month. No connection to leap days.

I think it's just that an error of 3 days or so every 400 years was good
enough for both the Romans and Shemuel. Common cause, rather than one
copying the other.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The mind is a wonderful organ
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   for justifying decisions
Author: Widen Your Tent      the heart already reached.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Please see

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1342153328709545985.html
[https://threadreaderapp.com/images/screenshots/thread/1342153328709545985.jpg]<;https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1342153328709545985.html>
Thread by @Adderabbi on Thread Reader App<https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1342153328709545985.html>
Thread by @Adderabbi: Discussions of Nittel Nacht often begin with a
dichotomy: Hasidim observe the custom of not learning, whereas Litvaks
disregard this and learn. But neither of these groups was the first to
obs...?
threadreaderapp.com

YL
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On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 06:03:47PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> And then he quoted Reb Zalman Alpert:
>> This has nothing to do with science. It's in the realm of Aggada and
>> kabbala which has no relation to logical scientific facts.
...
> I am a person who believes that each year, on Shavuos, there is a hashpaah
> from Above that enables us to accept the Torah yet again. And this happens
> every year, on schedule, whether it happens to be the 5th 6th or 7th of
> Sivan. And it happens on schedule every year...

Do you believe that when we speak of itzumo shel yom mekhapeir this includes
someone who dosn't believe in Yom Kippur and its power of kapparah? Seems
to be a parallel to what you're discussing about Shavuos.

There are other alternatives to science than just asserting metaphysical
forces. Even as a derekh in Qabbalah, eg the Ramchal's metaphoric approach.

What can make Shavuos a day of hashpa'ah for qabalas haTorah need not be
physics or even something "out there", but rather in our relationship to
the date. Halakhah in general seems to relate more to things as we relate
to them than to abstract scientific facts about the thing in itself.

Like when posqim choose to ignore DNA testing that would mean someone is
a mamzer. DNA testing is about facts about objects, not relationship to
them. We don't relate to microscopic bugs, or to DNA.

And similarly, our deciding a day is Shavuos can be the metaphysics that
makes Shavuos powerful. Which would be undrstandable to a reationalist,
and yet still be consistent with approaches to Qabbalah like R Chaim
Volozhiner's. (Like in Nefesh haChaim 1:6, where he writes that the
human was created last, "beri'ah nifla'a koachme'seif lekhol hamachanos"
that we alone are where all the olamos touch and connect, and actions
in one world can have the ability to move events in another only through
the connection that is Adam. (Which is his definition of "tzelem Elokim",
where "Elokim" is taken to mean "Master of all the Kochos".)


Which could also be true for defining 6pm Friday. I don't believe that,
since it's the railroads, and not the din, that standadized the clock. I
more want to change the language of the dialog from either physics or
metaphysics, but both presuming to be objective. The Torah focuses more
on the subjective world than our attempts to identify and understand an
objective one (or: ones).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
Author: Widen Your Tent      Kippur with that intent.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

One can listen to a talk on this subject at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBuaVoA9tlg
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.9XRlDiI%2bcrjgdX1U3%2f4Jmg&;pid=Api]<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBuaVoA9tlg>
Christmas Eve: Is it a Time for Torah Study? || Dr. Marc Shapiro<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBuaVoA9tlg>
www.youtube.com

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A few years ago I saw an article that made a fairly convincing case that 
all the classic Nittel minhagim originally started among German Xians in 
the 16th century, and the Jews picked it up from them.  Apparently the 
German "Santa" of that time was far from the jolly figure we're familiar 
with, and the Xian kids were terrified of him, and spread that terror to 
their Jewish playmates.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 3:41 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> .
> Bereshis 45:27 tells us that Yaakov saw the agalos (wagons) that Yosef had
> sent. Rashi there explains that Yosef was sending a coded message, by way
> of a pun, because when Yosef left Yaakov, they had been learning about the
> eglah arufah.
>
> But actually, in Bereshis 45:19, Paro commanded Yosef to tell his brothers
> to take wagons. it was not Yosef's idea to send wagons at all. The idea
> came from Paro.
>
> Technically, Yosef DID tell his brothers to take wagons, but my point is
> that it wasn't Yosef's idea. It seems that in order to send this message to
> Yaakov, Hashem inspired Paro to command Yosef about the wagons.
>

My understanding is that there was no coded message.
He sent a direct message, what were they learning last.
That is why the possuk says, the wagons that Yosef sent.

Akiva Blum
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The midrash partially blames Yaakov for the whole story with Yosef, because
he gave Yosef the ketonet pasim above what the other brothers got we went
down into Egypt.

  I recently heard a question from Rav Medan that he doesn't understand the
complaint. Yosef alone among the brothers has no mother. Thus, Jacob had to
act as both father and mother to Yosef. Thus, the other brothers got more
from their mothers and Yaakov was only making up for the lack of a mother
)Binyamin was too young to figure in any of this),
Similarly why should the brothers feel jealous of Yosef for receiving the
coat and not think that an orphan (from the mother) deserves a little more
attention

Any answers?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Commercial customs often (but not always) supersede halachic default
positions. Thought question-Is halachic default position the ratzon hashem
(What HKB"H prefers of us)or simply provided so society can function?
Bonus-How does this relate to priorities for chiyuvim for the amud(leading
services)?
KT
Joel Rich

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