Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 112

Tue, 22 Dec 2020

• 1. Re: Fw: COVID vaccine (gil.stud...@gmail.com)
• 2. Even More on the Molad (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Who sent the wagons? (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: The Molad (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Le'ilui Nishmas an Infant (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Le'ilui Nishmas an Infant (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 7. Re: Le'ilui Nishmas an Infant (Zvi Lampel)
• 8. Re: Le'ilui Nishmas an Infant (Danny Schoemann)
• 9. Re: Le'ilui Nishmas an Infant (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Le'ilui Nishmas an Infant (Zvi Lampel)

Here is the shiur:
https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/982075/rabbi-mordechai-i-willig-rabbi-dr-aaron-glatt-rabbi-yaakov-glasser/the-covid-vaccine-halacha-and-public-policy-a-communal-conversation/


Gil Student


On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 10:06 AM Prof. L. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu>
wrote:

> From Steven cooper, MD
>
> ?Dr Aaron Glatt says EVERYONE should get the vaccine, even elderly, even
> immune compromised
>
> And, says ??? ????? Willig, ??????, based on the ???? ?????, the ????, the
> ????? and other ?????, that we have a ???? ????????? to get this vaccine!!
>
>
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I have received two emails dealing with this topic.

IIANM, the announced molad time is not JST; it is Jerusalem local time, which I believe is 21 minutes later than standard time.

_____________________________________________________________________

Solar time means calculating the time based on high noon. So midnight would
be 12 hours after high noon. Solar time is a system of counting time it has
nothing to do with whether the molad falls at night or during the day. See
below from OU.org

https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/how-is-the-molad-calculated/

In addition, it is worth noting that the molad is announced in accordance with Jerusalem time.

To explain what Jerusalem time means, we must first understand the
difference between civil time and solar time. In civil time, noon is 12:00
p.m. In solar time, noon is the time when the sun reaches its highest
position in the sky. This is called high noon (or Chatzos in halachic
terms). There can be a significant disparity between the civil noon and
solar noon. For example, in the summer, the two times may be an hour apart.

Jerusalem time is based on solar time. 1:00 p.m. in Jerusalem time is one hour after high noon, which may be 1:30 p.m or 1:45 p.m in civil time.

When the molad is announced, it is the time of the molad in Jerusalem based on solar time.

__________________________________________________

So according to the second email, my original statement that the Molad is announced in Jerusalem solar time was correct!!!

YL

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.
Bereshis 45:27 tells us that Yaakov saw the agalos (wagons) that Yosef had
sent. Rashi there explains that Yosef was sending a coded message, by way
of a pun, because when Yosef left Yaakov, they had been learning about the
eglah arufah.

But actually, in Bereshis 45:19, Paro commanded Yosef to tell his brothers
to take wagons. it was not Yosef's idea to send wagons at all. The idea
came from Paro.

Technically, Yosef DID tell his brothers to take wagons, but my point is
that it wasn't Yosef's idea. It seems that in order to send this message to
Yaakov, Hashem inspired Paro to command Yosef about the wagons.

Comments?

Akiva Miller
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On 21/12/20 4:29 pm, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> It has been pointed out to me that "The Molad announcement isn't based 
> on solar time, as there's no nighttime solar time.

That's false.  There certainly is solar time at night, and the molad is 
reported in that system.


> a constant interval cycle that is widely but incorrectly regarded as
> an approximation of the time in Jerusalem of the mean lunar
> conjunction.
"Incorrectly"?! Citation needed.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 08:48:08PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
>> I really don't know what le'ilui nishmas means when speaking of a nifteres
>> who only lived 11 weeks, and therefore didn't become old enough for the
>> concept of cheit to have meaning.

> Must one's neshamah have a cheit to have an aliyah? Adam Harishon kodeim
> haCheit also had opportunity to rise to greater heights.

When someone never had a chance to really exercise bechirah, what would
block their hana'as ziv haShechinah when they get to the olam ha'emes?

That was the way I was thinking of the issue when I posed the question.

After asking around, I was made to realize another option:

It is possible that there is no maximum hana'ah a human is capable of,
and therefore whereever they are beshe'as petirah, there is still room
upward.

Second issue, if someone didn't inspire others to do the mitzvah in
question, how can that mitzvah be added to their cheshbon. And I don't
mean that they in effect inspired, I mean chose to inspire. After all,
what's the sekhar in just happening to be a cause, no different than a
falling rock could be a cause?

And this issues grows when you think about it. Re'uvein is meqareiv
Shimon as a teenager. Shimon grows up, marries a shomeres Shabbos, and
raises a family. Generations of people performing mitzvos, all because
of Re'uvein. Now, in a parallel universe, years after Shimon gets married
he still doesn't have children r"l, goes for testing and finds out he is
infertile. Re'uvein couldn't know. Re'uvein did everything exactly the
same as in the first universe. But his actions don't produce generations
of shomerei Torah uMitzvos. Perhaps some, people Shimon influenced, but
not of the same scale. Should the Re'uvein in this version of the story
get less sekhar for the same choices and the same actions?

What if r"l 2 weeks after a man's petirah, his only child is niftar. Say
a totally unexpected brain aneurism. The child who would have made a
siyum mishnayos, who would have made siyumim every year on his yahrzeit,
who would have given matan beseiser le'ilui nishmaso,would would have
said Qaddish. All those mitzvos don't get done, but through nothing the
father did or could even have known about. Does he get a lower place in
gan eden because of it?

How do we satisfy straightforward notions of Dayan haEmes with these things?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
Author: Widen Your Tent      in fact, of our modesty.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

On 12/18/2020 2:44 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I really don't know what le'ilui nishmas means when speaking of a nifteres
> who only lived 11 weeks, and therefore didn't become old enough for the
> concept of cheit to have meaning.
>
> Would such a neshamah have descended at all, to have a place to rise
> back up to?

[Digest people: I know this is just a bunch of "?". RYGB quotes Yosef
Ometz pg 331. Saying that: The value of Qaddish etc... for avaeilim
is that each tefillah elevates the meis. Not just ofr amei ha'aratzos,
but learning Torah is also 14x (shiva'atayim) more effective than any
tefillah, more so chiddushei Torah. There is no measure to the kavod
the father thereby gets in yeshivah shel maalah. So says medrash that
has been hidden for generations. Therefore, ever avel for a father or
mother should try their hardes to learn whatever they can according to
their intellectual abililty.]

*??? ?' ???? ????? ??? ????????? ???? '???? ????':*

/*???? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????, ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? 
?? ??????, ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?????. ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? 
??????, ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ??? 
??? ???. ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? 
?????? ?? ????, ?? ???? ????? ????? ????. ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? 
???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????. (???? 331)*/


[Email #2. -micha]

There is no limit up to illui neshama. See the last Gemara in Moed 
Kattan (Bavli). The seforim say on every yahrzeit the neshama goes up a 
notch. Mitzvos generated in this world by the catalyst of the neshama 
for which we do the mitzvos are uplifted by the zechus of having caused 
additional illumination in this world.

YGB

On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 6:09 PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 08:48:08PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> RMB: I really don't know what le'ilui nishmas means when speaking of a
> nifteres who only lived 11 weeks, and therefore didn't become old enough
> for the concept of cheit to have meaning.
>
> ZL: Must one's neshamah have a cheit to have an aliyah? Adam Harishon
> kodeim haCheit also had opportunity to rise to greater heights.
>
> RMB: ...It is possible that there is no maximum hana'ah a human is capable
> of, and therefore whereever they are beshe'as petirah, there is still room
> upward.
>

Yes, that's what I meant.

>
> RMB: Second issue, if someone didn't inspire others to do the mitzvah in
> question, how can that mitzvah be added to their cheshbon. And I don't
> mean that they in effect inspired, I mean chose to inspire. After all,
> what's the sekhar in just happening to be a cause, no different than a
> falling rock could be a cause?...How do we satisfy straightforward notions
> of Dayan haEmes with these things?
>

Yes, this is indeed a problem if the only way one's neshama can have an
aliyah is because one made choices to make oneself deserve it.

You give two examples that illustrate the problem. Here's a simpler one.

Someone is niftar, and people learn mishnayos le'ilui nishmaso. He didn't
inspire them to do that. But their learning is still a gift to him
that he gains.

It seems that the concept is that Hashem gave people the power to gift each
other, or to assign a sharing of the merits they gain to whomever they
please. Just as it is in olam hezeh. What is the justice that I should gain
wealth by my shver gifting me, just because I married his daughter?

Not that I have a mekor for any of this. Maybe we can relate it to the
concept of a kinyan to B through the han'a'a that A get's from B' accepting
the item from him. (The niftar's neshamah is surely choosing to grant the
learner the hana'a of accepting the learner's gift to it. In exchange of
that hana'a to the learner, that neshama gains the merit of the learning.)

Zvi Lampel
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RMB: "I really don't know what le'ilui nishmas means when speaking of
a nifteres who only lived 11 weeks"

I really don't know what le'ilui nishmas means at the best of times,
since it seems to negate the entire foundation of Jewish Life, as
described, say, by the Mesilath Yeshorim.

I.e.: Your place in Neshoma-Land is defined by your actions down here.

(I understand that everything I do is "credited" to whoever
made/enabled/persuaded me to do it. E.g. parents, Rebbes, friends.
That's part of their "actions". Though even that needs to be
clarified; the billions of Tehilim said during the Holocaust - are
they credited to A.H. and his gang of thugs? may they rot, etc.)

So if I learn a Mishna, it gets credited to me, and some kickback to
my Alef-Beis teacher, my parents and all their ancestors. (Assuming
that never dissuaded me from doing such things, I imagine.)

Now I decide it's le'ilui nishmas a certain Opa who's Yahrzeit it is.
Why & how would he get more credit than anybody else? Maybe because
I'm learning specifically because it's his Yahrzeit? But that's not an
"action" he did.

Forget about learning a Mishna for a random childless niftar. How on
earth does that work? or: how in heaven does that work? ;-)

Sources "supporting" this view are abundant, starting at Rav Hai Gaon
& Rav Sherira Gaon who both wrote that doing good deeds for others is
nonsense. Some of these sources can be seen at
https://www.sefaria.org.il/sheets/57393.30

B'Kitzur, the M.Y. teaches us that we toil in this world to reap in
the next. Prep on Friday to eat on Shabbos, etc.
Le'ilui nishmas seems to undermine that. Do as you wish in this world
and somebody will hopefully come along and fix your mistakes le'ilui
nishmas your misguided soul.

I'd like an explanation how to reconcile the MY and le'ilui nishmas.

Kol Tuv

- Danny

On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 04:01:25PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote:
> I really don't know what le'ilui nishmas means at the best of times,
> since it seems to negate the entire foundation of Jewish Life, as
> described, say, by the Mesilath Yeshorim.

> I.e.: Your place in Neshoma-Land is defined by your actions down here.

And this is murach from statements like the Iqarim (4:33) saying that
geihinom's fires are those of shame. Or that Rabbeinu Yonah (Shaarei
Teshuvah 4:1) compares oneshim to illness -- aveiros cause spiritual
illness which has symptoms.

RCVolozhiner (Derekh haChaim 1:21) says that onesh is causal based on
Eiruvin 19a "'emeiq' - shema'amiqin lahen geihinom" -- the sinner is
called "eimeq" because they deepen geihinom for themselves.

All of which argue against R' Zvi Lampel (haBaal haDynamics) the idea
that zekhus or lack thereof can be a fungible.

As does just our basic instincts of fairness.


So, to get back to RDS's difficulty:

I heard R Tendler discuss it with a talmid who was sitting shiv'ah. I
also heard the same answer (same as far as I can tell) from R Herschel
Schachter.

A person's place in the olam ha'emes is indeed defined by their actions
down there. As are the consequences of those actions. A person isn't
getting the zekhus of the child saying Qaddish, he is getting the zekhus
of raising a child who would say Qaddish.

Now, adding my own layer:

And if the son figures as much, and decides that therefore actually saying
Qaddish is redundant, to the extent that that decision was caused by the
parent in question, that also reflects on the quality of their feelings
attitudes and behaviors when they were down here.

And in my earlier example of Re'uvein who was meqareiv Shim'on. Re'uvein's
feelings attitudes and actions are the same whether it later turns
out that Shim'on is r"l infertile or raises generations of shomerei
Torah uMitzvos. And so, I would think that even if those children never
materialize, Re'uvein's sekhar would be the same. We would just have
less testimony to the greatness of his actions in olam hazeh. (Presumably
Shim'on would be positively influencing people in other ways. The impact
is just less obvious without the concentration of impacted people that
parenthood creates.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
Author: Widen Your Tent      in fact, of our modesty.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 11:12 AM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> ... Your place in Neshoma-Land is defined by your actions down here...is
> murach from statements like the Iqarim (4:33) saying that
> geihinom's fires are those of shame. Or that Rabbeinu Yonah (Shaarei
> Teshuvah 4:1) compares oneshim to illness -- aveiros cause spiritual
> illness which has symptoms.
>
> RCVolozhiner (Derekh haChaim 1:21) says that onesh is causal based on
> Eiruvin 19a "'emeiq' - shema'amiqin lahen geihinom" -- the sinner is
> called "eimeq" because they deepen geihinom for themselves.
>
> All of which argue against R' Zvi Lampel (haBaal haDynamics) the idea
> that zekhus or lack thereof can be a fungible.
>
> As does just our basic instincts of fairness.
>

I agree. My suggestion would only be a valid opposing shittah if a mekor in
Chazal/Rishonim for it would be found. (Or if minhag Yisrael would be a
valid mekor...uh oh, getting into that bnei niviim thing...)

>
>
> So, to get back to RDS's difficulty:
>
> ...
> A person's place in the olam ha'emes is indeed defined by their actions
> down there. ... he is getting the zekhus
> of raising a child who would say Qaddish.
>
> ...
> And in my earlier example of Re'uvein who was meqareiv Shim'on. Re'uvein's
> feelings attitudes and actions are the same whether it later turns
> out that Shim'on is r"l infertile or raises generations of shomerei
> Torah uMitzvos. And so, I would think that even if those children never
> materialize, Re'uvein's sekhar would be the same. ...
>

But your original problem,

 I really don't know what le'ilui nishmas means when speaking of a nifteres

who only lived 11 weeks,...


will still remain unsolved, no?

Zvi Lampel

> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
> Author: Widen Your Tent      in fact, of our modesty.
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            -Louis Kronenberger, writer
> (1904-1980)
>
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