Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 103

Wed, 02 Dec 2020

• 1. Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 2. Re: Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Eating Outdoor Seating (Prof. L. Levine)
• 4. Re: rosh hashana (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: rosh hashana (Micha Berger)
• 6. Publicizing a Chillul Hashem (Akiva Miller)
• 7. min hatorah (Rich, Joel)
• 8. local custom (Rich, Joel)

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace?

A. The Gemara (Kidushin 40b) states, ?One who eats in a marketplace is like
a dog. Some say he is ineligible to testify in court. Rav Idi Bar Avin
said, the halacha follows ?Some say? (that such individuals may not bear
testimony).? The Rambam (Hilchos Eidus 11:5) and Shulchan Aruch (CM 34:18)
both rule in accordance with Rav Idi Bar Avin.

To many people, eating in a marketplace might seem benign, and therefore,
the comparison to a dog appears extreme. In truth, the Torah demands high
levels of refinement from human beings who are created bitzelem Elokim (in
the image of G-d), and these statements of Chazal should be appreciated in
this light. Presumably, the comparison to a dog is because dogs are not shy
in their eating habits, and they pounce upon food wherever they find it.
Human beings are not animals, and the consumption of food should be done
with dignity and finesse. A person who conducts himself ?like a dog?
compromises his tzelem Elokim. Contemporary culture has broken many
barriers of decency and studying these halachos serves to strengthen our
sensitivity.

Even so, the invalidation of such an individual from being a witness is
difficult to comprehend. The great twelfth century posek, Rav Yoseph Ibn
Migash, writes (Teshuva 159) that one who eats in the market does not
violate any specific Torah law. If so, why is this person excluded from
giving testimony. Rashi addresses this issue (Kidushin 40b) and explains
that a person who acts in this manner cares little about personal dignity
and will not be concerned about becoming an eid posul (an invalidated
witness) if he commits perjury. It appears from Rashi that the presumed
integrity of a witness is based on the natural embarrassment that a person
might experience if labeled an eid posul. One who degrades himself in
public is shameless and cannot be trusted to testify. Rav Yoseph Ibn Migash
notes that this invalidation of a witness is not limited to eating in the
marketplace but includes any other public display of strange or
embarrassing behavior.

The Yerushalmi (Maseros 3:2) relates that Rebbi Elazar bar Rebbi Shimon was
eating in the marketplace and Rebbi Meir stopped him and told him that such
behavior was unbefitting of a talmid chacham. Poskim ask that this implies
that only a talmid chachom must avoid such activity. This would appear to
contradict the Talmud Bavli (the Gemara in Kidushin quoted above) which
implies that eating in the market is inappropriate for everyone. Poskim
offer various responses. The Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 34:18, see
Sema ibid. 44) follows the opinion that the Yerushalmi is discussing eating
in a side area of the market, where there are only a few people. Only a
talmid chochom is restricted from doing so. On the other hand, the Bavli is
dealing with eating in the central area of the market where everyone can
see him. Everyone is restricted and becomes ineligible to testify in court
if they eat in this manner. (To be continued.)

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On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 05:25:15PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>  From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
> 
> > Q. Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace?
> 
>> A. The Gemara (Kidushin 40b) ... Rav Idi Bar Avin said, the halacha
>> follows 'Some say' (that such individuals may not bear testimony)." The
>> Rambam (Hilchos Eidus 11:5) and Shulchan Aruch (CM 34:18) both rule in
>> accordance with Rav Idi Bar Avin.
...
>> The Yerushalmi (Maseros 3:2) relates that Rebbi Elazar bar Rebbi Shimon
>> was eating in the marketplace and Rebbi Meir stopped him and told him
>> that such behavior was unbefitting of a talmid chacham.... The Shulchan
>> Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 34:18, see Sema ibid. 44) follows the opinion
>> that the Yerushalmi is discussing eating in a side area of the market,
>> where there are only a few people. ... On the other hand, the Bavli is
>> dealing with eating in the central area...

This raises a recurring question WRT chilul hasheim and the behavior of
talmidei chakhamim.

Nowadays, when shomerei Torah umitzvos are a minority, anyone dressed
identifiably like an Orthodox Jew is seen as representing Torah. Much
the way talmidei chakhamim were seen by the masses in the classical
period. An Orthodox-dressed Jew who goes out looking like a shlump
creates pretty much the same impression today that a TC who went out
with dirty clothes did then.

So, how many of the laws of how a TC should behave and should present
himself apply to all of us?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 There's only one corner of the universe
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you can be certain of improving,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and that's your own self.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF             - Aldous Huxley

From today's OU Halacha Yomis


Q. Some restaurants set up tables and chairs outside on the sidewalk. Is there any issue with eating in public if one is seated?

A. We previously quoted the Gemara (Kiddushin 40b) that one who eats in the
marketplace is displaying the behavior of a dog, and one who does so is
invalidated from testifying in court. Since the Gemara does not
differentiate between walking, standing, or sitting, it would appear that
all of these are inappropriate. However, the Rambam (Hilchos Eidus 11:5)
and Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 34:18) write that one who eats while
walking through a marketplace is invalidated from testifying, which
indicates that eating in a marketplace is acceptable if one is seated. On
this basis, Rav Yitzchak Zilberstein (Chashukai Chemed, Brochos 50a) writes
that eating in at a sidewalk caf? or restaurant is acceptable, as one
typically eats while seated. Nonetheless, Rav Zilberstein notes that there
is a higher standard for a talmid chochom. The Rambam (Hilchos Deiyos 5:2)
writes that a talmid chacham should only eat at a home while seated at a
table, and he should not eat in a store or in the marke
 tplace unless there is a great need. It is clear from the Rambam that a
 talmid chacham should not eat in a marketplace even when seated. As such,
 a talmid chochom should not eat at a sidewalk restaurant. Rav Zilberstein
 makes a similar distinction regarding eating on a bus. For the general
 public it is acceptable since they are seated (provided other passengers
 are not offended), but a talmid chacham should avoid doing so.

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On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 11:24:31PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Rosh Hashanah has been difficult for me for a long time. Rosh Hashana
> is both a Yom Din and a coronation night(malchiyot)...

Here's my pet theory...

The point of malkhus is in contrast to memshalah. "Ein melekh belo am"
-- a melekh requires the acclimation of the people. Hashem rules either
way. The key is to accept His rule, to take the memshalah and turn it
into melukhah.

The Gra makes this point from pesuqim like
   Ki Lashem hamlukhah -- we declare
   umosheil bagoyim -- even those nations that don't accept His rule.
Until the day when
   .. vehayah H' leMelekh al kol ha'aretz...
And so
   Malkhusekha malkhus kol olamim
   umemshaltekha bekhol dor vador
-- unaccepted memshalah has a more limited "from generation to generation"
compared to the Eternity of Divine Malkhus. Because it's only until the
messianic age and the "bayom hahu" described in the above pasuq from
Zekhariah (and said after Aleinu).

One difference between a mosheil who rules regardless of the will of
the people and a melekh who has their support is that the melekh has
less call to impose his will despite their desires. Even if the mosheil
is benevolent, he cannot rely on public support so his methods will be
less accepted by the masses.

Which is why the mashal of Rosh haShanah is that of a king sitting in
judgment -- but this King is "sitting" on a "Kisei Rachamim".

And so, the first step of din is geting on the same page as the Dayan.
Especially if I want a sentence that doesn't involve as many things
happening despite not wanting them to.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   isn't complete with being careful in the laws
Author: Widen Your Tent      of Passover. One must also be very careful in
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 11:24:31PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Rosh Hashanah has been difficult for me for a long time. Rosh Hashana
> is both a Yom Din and a coronation night(malchiyot)...

Here's my pet theory...

The point of malkhus is in contrast to memshalah. "Ein melekh belo am"
-- a melekh requires the acclimation of the people. Hashem rules either
way. The key is to accept His rule, to take the memshalah and turn it
into melukhah.

The Gra makes this point from pesuqim like
   Ki Lashem hamlukhah -- we declare
   umosheil bagoyim -- even those nations that don't accept His rule.
Until the day when
   .. vehayah H' leMelekh al kol ha'aretz...
And so
   Malkhusekha malkhus kol olamim
   umemshaltekha bekhol dor vador
-- unaccepted memshalah has a more limited "from generation to generation"
compared to the Eternity of Divine Malkhus. Because it's only until the
messianic age and the "bayom hahu" described in the above pasuq from
Zekhariah (and said after Aleinu).

One difference between a mosheil who rules regardless of the will of
the people and a melekh who has their support is that the melekh has
less call to impose his will despite their desires. Even if the mosheil
is benevolent, he cannot rely on public support so his methods will be
less accepted by the masses.

Which is why the mashal of Rosh haShanah is that of a king sitting in
judgment -- but this King is "sitting" on a "Kisei Rachamim".

And so, the first step of din is geting on the same page as the Dayan.
Especially if I want a sentence that doesn't involve as many things
happening despite not wanting them to.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   isn't complete with being careful in the laws
Author: Widen Your Tent      of Passover. One must also be very careful in
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

.
I'm currently discussing a specific event on Areivim, and this is the place
to ask my question in general terms:

If someone commits a public Chillul Hashem, of course we must protest it to
the onlookers, to impress upon them how awful and unacceptable such
behavior is. I think Pinchas is an adequate demonstration of this.

My question concerns the people who DON'T know about the event. Is it a
chiyuv / mitzva / good idea to inform them about this, so that we can tell
them how awful it was and that they should not do such things?

My feeling is that one should NOT tell other people about it, because that
very act will be a Chillul Hashem itself (or at least akin to Chillul
Hashem) because this new information will tend to desensitize people about
such things. This is especially true if the perpetrator of the Chillul
Hashem is someone who the audience perceives as an admirable frum Jew.
One's brain - or at least a tiny part of it - will inevitably be influenced
to think that "If such a person is doing it, it can't be so terrible." This
desensitization - this lessening of respect for Hashem and His Torah - is
the very definition of Chillul Hashem.

If someone already knows about the event, then his mind has already been
poisoned, and we must act like Pinchas, to mitigate the damage to whatever
extent we can. But telling the blissfully ignorant - I see no positive
value to such a thing.

Are there any sources that anyone can suggest which discuss this question?

Akiva Miller
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The Gemara chulin 17b asks "Minayin lbdikat sakin min hatorah"(from where
do we know that a shechita knife must be checked) and answers with a pasuk
from navi. I couldn't find another gemara that asks this question and
answers with a pasuk not from the Torah. Thoughts?
Kt
Joel rich

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When the mishna tells us that we need to keep local custom (makom
shenahagu....Al yishaneh adam mpnei hamachloket) it gives the reason "mpnei
machloket"(avoid discord?). What specific type actions/statements were
Chazal concerned about in terms of discord?
KT
Joel Rich

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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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