Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 84

Thu, 15 Oct 2020

• 1. Analogies (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Shemini Atzeres as a time for Hislamdus (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Chilul Hashem in the Streets: Response to the Protests - Rav Mayer Twersky (Ben Bradley)
• 4. Re: Chilul Hashem in the Streets: Response to the Protests - Rav Mayer Twersky (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Chilul Hashem in the Streets: Response to the Protests - Rav Mayer Twersky (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Chilul Hashem in the Streets: Response to the Protests - Rav Mayer Twersky (Ben Bradley)
• 7. Re: Chilul Hashem in the Streets: Response to the Protests - Rav Mayer Twersky (Micha Berger)
• 8. Vegan Restaurant Without Hashgacha (Prof. Levine)

From the RCBC (Rabbinic Council of Bergen County): Just as our exile from
Israel was intended as punishment , but has become comfortable and even
preferable to many, the same may be said about our exile from shul and
yeshiva.
Question-What priority (resources/time )should/do  the American orthodox
community (and its leadership) spend on thinking about the first part of
this statement? Does the analogy resonate with them?
KT
Joel Rich

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On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 12:28:09PM -0400, I wrote:
> But first, a pitstop to look at RSWolbe's introduction to Hislamdus,
> to where he links Hislamtus to Torah. We start with his quoting the
> Rambam:
> 
>    A woman who learned Torah receives reward, but not like the reward
>    of a man, because she isn't obligated. Etc... And even though
>    she receives reward, our sages commanded that a man not teach
>    his daughter Torah, because most women's intellects aren't ready
>    lehislameid. Rather, they find the words of Torah to be words
>    of emptiness according to the poverty of their intellect. Our
>    sages said that one who teaches his daughter Torah is like he
>    taught her foolishness.
> 
>        - Hil' Talmud Torah 1:13
> 
>     The Rambam teaches us through this that the purpose of Torah study
>     is hislamdus, and someone whose intellect isn't ready lehislameid he
>     is released from the obligation of Torah study....

One chaver couldn't get past this. I didn't see that coming. I did the
first time I ran a vaad using this section of Alei Shur with a non-O
population. But they didn't have a problem. Nor any of the groups
since.

Non-O Jews are used to picking the elements they accept out of the ones
they don't. I guess because we do this far less often, expecting primary
sources to be authoritative and accepted, this chaver was thrown.

Reaching RSW's conclusion from the Rambam doesn't require accepting the
Rambam's opinion of women and their ability to learn. You can understand
it as the Rambam's prejudice, a statement sadly true of women in many
cultures in history (and some today) and particularly living among 12th
century Almohad Muslems.

The relevant factoid of the Rambam is that someone who cannot learn
behislamdus, in a reflective way that aims at internalization, doesn't
gain much from learning. A man may be a metzuveh ve'oseh anyway, perhaps
in hopes that someday he has a good moment. But if a woman isn't metzuvah
and cannot learn behislamdus, there is so little zekhus in learning
without hislamdus, it's not worth the risk of turning it into tiflus.

We're talking out an "if X then Y" from the Rambam to derive something
about where the value of talmud Torah (other than fulfilling a chiyuv)
resides. You don't need to worry about whether the Rambam was correct in
assuming X holds, just in his assuming the if-then.

And, as I said, my non-O students are somehow used to thinking that way.

While O Jews have less calling to do the same, there is still a profound
need to do so. Beyond examples like this Rambam. After all, eilu va'eilu
Divrei Elokim Chaim. If we want to learn from sefarim that promote
derakhim that don't share our givens, we need to be able to extract the
elements that can enhance my derekh from the ones that are incompatible
with it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Worrying is like a rocking chair:
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it gives you something to do for a while,
Author: Widen Your Tent      but in the end it gets you nowhere.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

The elephant in the room is that the there is absolutely no recognition
amongst the m'chalalei hashem that their actions constitute chilul hashem.
I have had this discussion a number of times with a number of different
people who have absolutely denied that actions which make others think
badly of frum Jews is any way a problem of chilul hashem unless, and this
is an important rider, their actions are inherently aveiros in Hashem's
eyes.
According to this, if you are doing right in Hashem's eye ie keeping mitzvos bein adam l'makom, there can never be an issue of chillul hashem.
This will justify violence and thuggery of all kinds when it's purportedly
l'sheim shamayim. It will justify any kind of inconvenience to all around
you for the sake of public tefila b'tzibbur. It will justify all and any
public health hazard for the purpose of a mitzva.
And I don't mean people just don't realise what the halacha is about what
chillul hashem. I mean that even when you present them with relevant
sources and reasoning they deny that it is so.
By way of illustration, in an article in the Tablet this week a Jewish
journalist present at the attack in Borough Park asked a rioter 'what will
the goyim think?' The rioter replied that he could not care less what the
goyim think.
It is beyond my pay grade why this attitude has become so widespread
amongst large sections of those who learn Torah, but it certainly has. I
encourage people to have this discussion if you wish to verify it. It seems
to me that the more insular the community, the more certain the majority of
its members are of this travesty of halacha. Don't take my word for it, ask
people.

So while I'm glad there are voices like R Twersky's, we need to realise
that his words will have no effect whatsoever on the vast majority of the
people concerned. I fear the primary issue of chilul hashem, ie causing
people to think badly of frum Jews, is a meis mitzva. Huge numbers of
people simply do not, can not, will not understand that this is a problem.

Personally I can not think of any single issue more pressing to address in
the Jewish world than this. The potential for future damage to Torah
communities, to genuine ruchniyos, to our relationship with the world as a
whole, is mindboggling.

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On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 09:10:37PM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote:
> The elephant in the room is that the there is absolutely no recognition
> amongst the m'chalalei hashem that their actions constitute chilul
> hashem..

I think there is a more fundamental problem...

I don't think we should be talking about chilul hasheim. If we don't
create a culture where mitzvos BALC are thought of as at least as real
as mitzvos BALM, we are still set up for this problem.

Chazal say that the sum total of all of Torah is "that which you loathe,
don't do to others" or that it can be generalized as "ve'ahavta lerei'akha
kamokha" or "eileh toledos ha'adam". The actual inventor of "Yeshivish"
taught it was all about nosei be'ol im chaveiro (R Chaim Volozhiner
as per his repeated instruction to his son). Rav Shimon said that we
were created and given the Torah, "so that our greatest desire should
be lehitiv im zulaseinu ... bedemus haBorei kevayakhol." (Introduction
to Shaarei Yosher; WYT pg 45.)

But we, we replaced all this talk about being ehrlicher Yidn and now
call ourselves "frum" Jews. We call ourselves by the term people like
R Aharon Kotler, or my grandma, reserved for the hyperfocus on rituals
of the local Russian Orthodox priest.

Rav Wolbe defines "frumkeit" as an instinct to be holy, which like all
instincts is about the self. It's the attempt to use ritual mitzvos to
find holiness, without da'as or thinking about Retzon haBorei.

And it is unsurprising that we got here. O went through its Rupture
and Reconstruction, reborn after predictions of its demise that were
so common in the 1960s and early '70s. Understandable, the emergent
self-definition would be about those things that make O unique. And
this was an era when there was a lot less distinct about Torah Ethics
and Morality in contrast to Western values. We stood out from C by how
we kept Shabbos, Kashrus and Taharas HaMishapachah (as the idiom goes),
not by how we were trying to be givers rather than takers. (C.f. R'
Dessler's Qunterus haChessed in MmE vol I.)

So the emergent self-definition came to be about rituals. Add the Me
Generation and its zeitgeist. And voila! Frumkeit.

Now we're trapped in this culture where spirituality is about going to
shul to try to be holy. More so than about safeiq piquach nefesh. And
to deal with the resulting cognitive dissonance we grab on to anyone
suggesting that the risk is negligable, and invent new and anti-mesoretic
theologies that say the risk is metaphysically avoided, and that it is
okay to be somkhin al haneis with other people's lives.

Worrying about chilul hasheim when avaq retzichah is afoot is a total
distortion of Torah. And the cultural pendulum won't start swinging the
other way until we shine a spotlite on Ahavas Yisrael and Ahavas haBerios,
and mitzvos that can be reinterpreted within the Frum framework.

To me this is a "Mi Lashem Eilai!" kind of moment. People are literally
risking others' lives. We can't stay any longer at the "identifying the
problem" stage; we need to start working toward a solution. Now.

With so much of the Frum World having gone OTD, who is leading the
new kind of Orthodoxy, starting the old-new culture of shemiras Torah
umitzvos?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I always give much away,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
Author: Widen Your Tent              -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

But we, we replaced all this talk about being ehrlicher Yidn and now
call ourselves "frum" Jews. We call ourselves by the term people like
R Aharon Kotler, or my grandma, reserved for the hyperfocus on rituals
of the local Russian Orthodox priest.

https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/972417/rabbi-daniel-hartstein/my-rebbe-rav-ahron-soloviechik/
Rabbi Daniel Hartstein-My Rebbe: Rav Ahron Soloviechik
        
        R'Chaim quoted as saying, "a galach is frum, a yid is ehrlich"

KT
Joel Rich
 

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Sent from 
> 
> I think there is a more fundamental problem...
> 
> I don't think we should be talking about chilul hasheim. If we don't
> create a culture where mitzvos BALC are thought of as at least as real
> as mitzvos BALM, we are still set up for this problem.
> 
True but the mindset that it really doesn?t matter at all what the world
thinks of us is still something of a separate matter. Although a Torah true
appreciation of the importance of BALC would probably inherently deal with
the lack of concern for others? perceptions.
> 
> 
> Worrying about chilul hasheim when avaq retzichah is afoot is a total
> distortion of Torah . 

Granted. But avak retzicha is rare. The events of the last week are
shocking because they are unusual . Whereas  Chilul HaShem of the kind
caused by lack of concern whatsoever about what the Other thinks of us is
maaseh b?col Yom. Just get on an aeroplane to EY for quick examples. What
has been highlighted is how easily the one becomes the other. 
Albeit that lack of concern for BALC is the common factor . 
> 
> To me this is a "Mi Lashem Eilai!" kind of moment. People are literally
> risking others' lives. We can't stay any longer at the "identifying the
> problem" stage; we need to start working toward a solution. Now.
> With so much of the Frum World having gone OTD, who is leading the
> new kind of Orthodoxy, starting the old-new culture of shemiras Torah
> umitzvos?

> And that is the million dollar question.  I couldn?t agree more that it?s a mi lahashem eili moment. But indeed who are our leviim?
The crisis of leadership in Klal Yisroel has never been more evident than
right now. How do we change things? And I mean quite literally and
seriously , how do WE change things
Ben

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 06:46:23AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> > I don't think we should be talking about chilul hasheim. If we don't
> > create a culture where mitzvos BALC are thought of as at least as real
> > as mitzvos BALM, we are still set up for this problem.

> True but the mindset that it really doesn't matter at all what the world
> thinks of us is still something of a separate matter. Although a Torah
> true appreciation of the importance of BALC would probably inherently
> deal with the lack of concern for others' perceptions.

My perspective in calling this a more fundemtnal problem is that if we aren't
doing Torah right, the fact that doing it the wrong way looks bad to others
is only a consequence.

>> Worrying about chilul hasheim when avaq retzichah is afoot is a total
>> distortion of Torah. 

> Granted. But avak retzicha is rare. The events of the last week are
> shocking because they are unusual...

I wasn't clear. To me, beating someone else unconscious isn't avaq
retzichah. That term is too mild for the crime. Besides, the hooligans
look like they were a bunch of teens with nothing to do over chol
hamo'eid -- the kind of thing no community over a certain size will
ever be entirely free from. (Although an Other-Focused Orthodoxy would
have fewer, one would think.)

So what /was/ I referring to as avaq retzichah?

I meant the disregard for safeiq piquach nefesh we've been seeing since
March or so. The prioritizing of minyan, halvayas hameis, mesameiach
chasan kekalah -- important as they are -- over the increased number of
medical fragile people who are going to die from these behaviors.


> Albeit that lack of concern for BALC is the common factor . 

>> To me this is a "Mi Lashem Eilai!" kind of moment. People are literally
>> risking others' lives. We can't stay any longer at the "identifying the
>> problem" stage; we need to start working toward a solution. Now....

> And that is the million dollar question. I couldn't agree more that it's
> a mi lahashem eili moment. But indeed who are our leviim?

> The crisis of leadership in Klal Yisroel has never been more evident
> than right now. How do we change things? And I mean quite literally and
> seriously, how do WE change things

I wasn't sure. Not that my efforts are having kehillah-changing success,
but so far I had e-launched two ideas:

- The AishDas Society: as a place where benei aliyah could meet or e-meet.
  (Benei Aliyah was the term Mussarnikim used to refer to what themselves
  and the more spiritually awake Chassidim had in common.) In theory,
  not necessarily mussar, in practice (especially once RGS went off to
  do his own thing), all our programming was mussar. And to leverage
  our influence, we offered services for shuls to help them run their
  own programs. And we have the capacity of providing

- Other-Focused Orthodoxy / Mevaqshei Tov veYosher: as a core for building
  a Yiddishkeit based on BALC (qodmah laTorah).

Whereas AishDas would be for people actively seeking growth (of any sort)
OFO was a repainting of the goal to be growing toward; not necessarily
only for people willing to invest time to work at it. A reframing of
the message in the classroom and pulpit, and thus the mental self-image.
The kind of ideal Rav Shimon advocates and my book expands upon, or that
of the other 35 or so primary sources I collected at
https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/142643.6

But I lack basic tools to make either happen on any scale: (1) a gadol
or at least a charismatic rabbi who is a popular speaker, and (2) a
gevir, without which we don't get the hours, real estate, and other
materials. And most gerivim got that way (or didn't blow through an
inheritance) by knowing how to make things happen.

I dream of staring an OFO flagship shul. I figure that's easier than
starting a school. But since it's largely a sociological phenomanon,
classes, chaburos or ve'adim wouldn't go as far to change someone's
self-definition as an institution signiticant enough to "belong to".

I expect to pass away a very frustrated man. (It's the fate of someone
who never stops being a teenager with a teenager's big dreams.) Unless
I keep on shouting until someone with those tools gets on board...

Meanwhile, there is 
https://www.amazon.com/Widen-Your-Tent-Thoughts-Integrity/dp/1946351555

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Worrying is like a rocking chair:
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it gives you something to do for a while,
Author: Widen Your Tent      but in the end it gets you nowhere.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

 From today's OU kosher halacha yomis


Q. There is a vegan restaurant in my community, but it does not have 
hashgacha. Someone told me, that you can go in and order a coffee and 
roll because these are made on dedicated equipment and nothing can go 
wrong. Is one permitted to do so?



A. No. Rolls may contain non-kosher oils, stabilizers and 
emulsifiers. Though unlikely, coffee may be made on non-kosher 
equipment. Even if the kosher status of the coffee and rolls was 
verified, entering an uncertified vegan restaurant, which sells 
kosher and non-kosher products, may appear suspicious to an onlooker. 
Igeros Moshe (OC II:40) discusses this very issue, whether one may 
enter a non-kosher restaurant to purchase foods that are known to be 
kosher? He writes that this would be a violation of both maris ayin 
(literally, ?the vision of the eye?, but the intent is causing the 
observer to become lax in their Torah observance) and chashad 
(literally suspicious, which means that the person?s reputation may 
be compromised). There is an additional concern with entering a 
non-certified vegan restaurant. The observer may assume that all 
vegan restaurants are kosher, and not realize that the consumer?s 
interest was limited to one or two kosher items. Thus, in addition to 
maris ayin and chashad at a vegan restaurant, there is also a 
possible violation of ?lifnei iver lo si?tain michshol? ? causing 
another Jew to ?stumble? and eat non-kosher. As such, frequenting a 
vegan restaurant is more serious than entering a non-kosher 
restaurant, as lifnei iver lo si?tain michshol is not a concern with 
a non-kosher restaurant since the non-kosher status is well known.



<html>

<head>

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">

<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P 
{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>

</head>

<body dir="ltr">

<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; 
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

 From today's OU kosher halacha yomis</div>

<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; 
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

<br>

</div>

<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; 
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">

<table class="deviceWidth" width="600" align="center">

<tbody>

<tr>

<td style="FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif; 
VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #333333; 
PADDING-BOTTOM: 10px; TEXT-ALIGN: left; PADDING-TOP: 10px; 
PADDING-LEFT: 20px; LINE-HEIGHT: 20px; PADDING-RIGHT: 20px">

<table>

<tbody>

<tr>

<td style="FONT-SIZE: 20px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: #000; 
PADDING-BOTTOM: 15px; PADDING-TOP: 10px; LINE-HEIGHT: 24px">

<em><strong></strong></em>

<p><strong><strong>Q. There is a vegan restaurant in my community, 
but it does not have

<em>hashgacha</em>. Someone told me, that you can go in and order a 
coffee and roll because these are made on dedicated equipment and 
nothing can go wrong. Is one permitted to do so?</strong></strong></p>

<em><em><em></em></em></em></td>

</tr>

</tbody>

</table>

</td>

</tr>

</tbody>

</table>

<table class="deviceWidth" width="600" align="center">

<tbody>

<tr>

<td style="COLOR: #333; PADDING-BOTTOM: 15px; PADDING-TOP: 10px; 
PADDING-LEFT: 10px; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.6; PADDING-RIGHT: 20px">

<p>A. No. Rolls may contain non-kosher oils, stabilizers and 
emulsifiers. Though unlikely, coffee may be made on non-kosher 
equipment. Even if the kosher status of the coffee and rolls was 
verified, entering an uncertified vegan restaurant, which sells kosher

  and non-kosher products, may appear suspicious to an onlooker. 
Igeros Moshe (OC II:40) discusses this very issue, whether one may 
enter a non-kosher restaurant to purchase foods that are known to be 
kosher? He writes that this would be a violation of both

<em>maris ayin</em> (literally, ?the vision of the eye?, but the 
intent is causing the observer to become lax in their Torah observance) and

<em>chashad</em> (literally suspicious, which means that the person?s 
reputation may be compromised). There is an additional concern with 
entering a non-certified vegan restaurant. The observer may assume 
that all vegan restaurants are kosher, and not realize



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