Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 75

Fri, 11 Sep 2020

• 1. Re: Hashem your G-d (Michael Poppers)
• 2. Aruch HaShulchan OC 62:4 (wolb...@yebo.co.za)
• 3. Re: 10PM Slichot (Zev Sero)
• 4. Dates from Ancient Genes and Koseves (Micha Berger)
• 5. directed donations (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Which parts of Selichos must be omitted if a minyan is not present? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. When to Say Se;lichos (Prof. L. Levine)
• 8. Re: Aruch HaShulchan OC 62:4 (Micha Berger)

Another example, seen via this week's ShMOT: Deu 31
<http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/t0531.htm>:26.
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"And therefore at this time it is forbidden to recite the Shema and
Tefillah and all brochas except in Hebrew.

And so paskened the Geonei Olam for about [the last] eighty years. And
this is the essential halocha."

I have several questions about this.

1. Surely the use of Yiddish translations was very common and accepted?

2. Is this a response to the Reform use of German translations?

3. While the translation of the Shema might be problematic, translation
of shemoneh esrei and brochas is surely not the same issue?

On 7/9/20 7:02 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Anyone know why R? Moshe in O?C 2:105 didn?t suggest pre-shacharit 
> slichot rather than 10Pm slichot as a stand in for chatzot (midnight) 
> slichot on the first night of slichot when there was a clear and present 
> danger?

The teshuva isn't about the first night, it's about all the days of 
selichos, and the situation is that it's impossible to do it either at 
midnight *or* before dawn.

He takes it for granted that selichos must be said at night, Kumi Roni 
Valayla, and at an Eis Ratzon, which means any time between midnight and 
dawn, and says the minhag to do it at the end of the night, before dawn, 
is for convenience.

So he reluctantly allows it after the first third of the night, with the 
proviso that it must be publicised that this is a hora'as sha'ah.  Why 
doesn't he even consider doing it in the morning after daylight?  I can 
think of two possibilities: Perhaps because selichos must be at night; 
or perhaps because people have to go to work and can't fit selichos in 
at their normal time for shacharis, and it's already posited in the 
question that for some reason they can't start earlier.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/07/world/middleeast/israel-judean-dates-agriculture.html

    KETURA, Israel The plump, golden-brown dates hanging in a bunch
    just above the sandy soil were finally ready to pick.

    They had been slowly ripening in the desert heat for months. But
    the young tree on which they grew had a much more ancient history
    sprouting from a 2,000-year-old seed retrieved from an archaeological
    site in the Judean wilderness.

Quick, can someone get the volume of these things before Yom Kippur?

Kidding aside.... Do people think that the shiur of a kekoseves should
be re-assessed, if necessary, based on this newly available data?

RYBS, and his version of R Chaim's argument against Radziner tekheiles (or
his argument against assuming orez = rice) would imply we don't. Halakhah
can only be founded upon mesorah, not scientific data. My summary of that
section of Nefesh haRav is at
https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol05/v05n073.shtml#12

Anyone want to provide meqoros for other opinions?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                     Time flies...
http://www.aishdas.org/asp               ... but you're the pilot.
Author: Widen Your Tent                          - R' Zelig Pliskin
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Question someone I know got concerning a contribution: Do you want your donation to the shul to be ?????? ???? ???
Response: I?d go with anonymous and pray that hkbh directs his accountant
to allocate it to where it?s most needed. As a matter fact maybe that
should be the inscription
Thoughts?
Kvct
Joel rich

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From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. Which parts of Selichos must be omitted if a minyan is not present?

A. Shulchan Aruch (OC 565:5) writes that the ?Yud Gimmel Middos Harachamim?
(thirteen attributes of mercy, Shemos 34:6-7) may not be recited unless
there is a minyan. When these pesukim are recited in the context of prayer,
they have the elevated status of a ?davar she?bikedusha,? like Kaddish or
Kedusha, that may only be said in the presence of a minyan. The Mishnah
Berurah (581:4) writes that Selichos that mention the Yud Gimmel Middos may
be said, provided that those lines are skipped. If one prefers to say the
Yud Gimmel Middos, he may do so if he recites them with the trop
(cantillation) used for krias haTorah, as that indicates that it is not
being recited as a tefillah (M?B 565:12). Mishnah Berurah also adds that
any Selichos that are written in Aramaic should be skipped. The basis for
this is the Gemara (Sotah 33a), in which Rebbi Yochanan states that angels
do not deliver prayers that were recited in Aramaic, but when praying with
a minyan one does not need the assistance of
  angels. Hashem?s presence is in the midst of the minyan and there is no need for angelic intervention.

The Mishnah Berurah concludes, if there is no minyan at the beginning of
Selichos, Kaddish is not said after Ashrei. Instead, the group should begin
reciting Selichos. When the tenth man arrives, the congregation should
recite three pesukim together, recite Kaddish and then continue from where
they left off.

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From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

Q.  What is preferable? To wake up early and recite Selichos before dawn
(a.k.a. alos hashachar, which is 72 minutes before sunrise), or to stay up
late and recite Selichos after chatzos (midnight)? What about saying
selichos after alos or after neitz hachama (sunrise)?


A. Rav Yitzchak Zylberstein (Chashukei Chemed, Yoma 22a) writes that the
preferred time to recite Selichos is before dawn. This can be inferred from
the Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 3:4) who writes that it is customay to awake at
night and recite Selichos until the morning. In addition, Mishnah Berurah
(581:1) writes that the end of the night is an eis rotzon (a propitious
time when G-d is receptive to prayer), implying that the early mornoing is
the most appropriate time for Selichos. Finally, the She?arim Metzuyanim
B?Halacah (Yoma 22a) notes that Selichos recited in the early morning is
more effective, since it is recited through greater sacrifice; it is more
difficult to wake up early than to stay up late.

May Selichos be rected after sunrise? Rav Chaim Kanievsky (Divrei Si?ach,
vol. 134) holds that it is preferable to recite Selichos after Chatzos than
to recite Selichos later in the day after sunrise. On the otherhand, Rav
Elyashav and Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach take an oposite opinion and write
that it is better to recite Selichos in the daytime (even after sunrise)
than to say it after chatzos (quoted in MB Dirshu MB, 581:1). Similiary,
the Aruch Hashulchan writes that it has been customary to say selichos in
the morning after sunrise for many generations.

On the other hand, Rav Moshe Feinstein zt?l (Igros Moshe OC, 2:105) writes
that kabalistically, the period after chatzos is as much an eis ratzon as
early dawn, and for this reason, for many generations, it has been
customary to recite Selichos at night after chatzos. This is also the
opinion of the Minchas Elazar (the previous Munkatcher Rebbi), as recorded
in Divrei Torah (141:76).

Even those who recomend saying selichos in early morning before sunrise
agree that on the first night of Selichos, on Motzei Shabbos, it is
preferable to recite Selichos after Chatzos. This is because we wish to
combine the merit of Shabbos together with the first Selichos. Therefore,
we begin Selichos after Chatzos, and do not wait for the early morning
(Chashukei Chemed, ibid.).

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Sidenote: This se'if was recently studied by Arukh haShulchan Yomi. If you
want to join us learning AhS Yomi, see the tools -- calendar, text, RYGB's
YouTube playlist -- at http://www.aishdas.org/ahs-yomi !

AhS Yomi covers OC and the applicable portions of YD. (From egg spots to
aveilus.)

On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 12:41:23PM +0200, wolberg via Avodah wrote:
>> And therefore at this time it is forbidden to recite the Shema and
>> Tefillah and all brochas except in Hebrew.
>> And so paskened the Geonei Olam for about [the last] eighty years. And
>> this is the essential halocha."
...
> 1. Surely the use of Yiddish translations was very common and accepted?

For women, yes. In fact, there is a script called Vaibrteitch
because translations were in general considered for women. ("Women's
Translation". "Teitch" evolved from the language name "Deutch".)
Vaibrteitch is different than Rashi script. See examples at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaybertaytsh

> 2. Is this a response to the Reform use of German translations?

Likely. That bit about how they used to know Hebrew better is
suspiciously post-facto sounding. Maybe when translating to another
Semitic language, or to Greek using a millenia old tradition of Hebrew
to Greek equivalences, we could have done better than we can to English.

However, 600 years ago, translating to German, French or Spanish... No
matter how well you know Hebrew, there is simply no close parallel to
translate words to.

A personal favorite when teaching Mussar is "yir'ah". Yir'ah is a range
from awe to fear. Maybe the closest is "awareness of the magnitude of
what you're facing" -- whether with admiration (awe) or thinking about
risk (fear) or in another way. But because we are thinking "awe or fear"
instead of a single concept, we cannot think about the middah of yir'as
Shamayim in a fully authentic way. It's not two thing with an "or", or
with a second thought about how they're related. It's a single territory
that should be part of our gut's language about how we're feeling at a
given point in time.

In any case, it is true that real translation is impossible. I would
faster *guess* that a machloqes about how close a translation may be
got closed because the response to Reform forced our hand to choose one
shitah over the other.


> 3. While the translation of the Shema might be problematic, translation
> of shemoneh esrei and brochas is surely not the same issue?

Well, we cannot translation "Barukh Atah Hashem", at least not "barukh"
or "Hashem" in any precise way. So, maybe not.

I am not sure people really know what they mean when they say "blessed".

But what is Barukh?
- Source of increase
- Maximally increased
- May You -- in the form of the expression of Your Will in this world -- be
incresed
- An intentional ambiguity of all of the above?

And sheim havayah pronounced as Adnus...
- The Atemporal
- The All-Compassionate
- The Transcendent
- The L-rd of All
Etc...

I would faster think the baqashos would be okay more than berakhos in
general. Or maybe the body of the berakhah until the chasimah. As long
as the translation is close enough so that it opens and wraps up with
me'ein hachasimah.

But lemaaseh, the AhS says that's not what "we hold".


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You are where your thoughts are.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp           - Ramban, Igeres haQodesh, Ch. 5
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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