Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 62

Wed, 29 Jul 2020

• 1. Aruch HaShulchan 32:76 (wolb...@yebo.co.za)
• 2. Re: Aruch HaShulchan 32:76 (Zev Sero)
• 3. Daas Chachamim Noachah Heimenu (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: God?s existence (David Riceman)
• 5. Re: God?s existence (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: action or results? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: avoiding the issue (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Change of Shluchei Tzibur during Pezukai D'Zimrah (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: God's existence (Micha Berger)
• 10. why did Chazal cancel shiva bc of Yom tov (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 11. Re: why did Chazal cancel shiva bc of Yom tov (Rich, Joel)

[AhS Yomi for yesterday covered OC 32:73-79. https://www.aishdas.org/ahs-yomi
-mi]

Loved the line:   ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? -- ??? ??? ????? ???? ???.
    [Ve'osam hamchapsim chumeros yeseiros --
    ein da'as chakhamim nochah heimenu.

    [And those who seek additional chumros -- the chachamim's thoughts
    about him are uneasy / wise opinions don't rest easily with him."
    -mi]

Any comment on it?

On 26/7/20 12:36 pm, wolberg--- via Avodah wrote:
> [AhS Yomi for yesterday covered OC 32:73-79. https://www.aishdas.org/ahs-yomi
> -mi]
> 
> Loved the line:   ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? -- ??? ??? ????? ???? ???.
>      [Ve'osam hamchapsim chumeros yeseiros --
>      ein da'as chakhamim nochah heimenu.
> 
>      [And those who seek additional chumros -- the chachamim's thoughts
>      about him are uneasy / wise opinions don't rest easily with him."
>      -mi]
> 
> Any comment on it?

I think "yeseros" here means "superfluous", rather than merely 
"additional".  Of course that begs the question, but I think that in 
general it's a statement of principle, not a rule for practice, though 
in this instance the AhS gives his opinion on what is superfluous.

(I'd also translate "ein daas chachomim nocha meihem" less literally, as 
"Torah authorities do not approve of them", or even, riskily, "Daas 
Torah does not approve of them".)


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

In translating a Hebrew quote posted to the list, I wrote:
>>      [Ve'osam hamchapsim chumeros yeseiros --
>>      ein da'as chakhamim nochah heimenu.
>> 
>>      [And those who seek additional chumros -- the chachamim's thoughts
>>      about him are uneasy / wise opinions don't rest easily with him."
>>      -mi]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 07:10:19PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> (I'd also translate "ein daas chachomim nocha meihem" less literally, as
> "Torah authorities do not approve of them", or even, riskily, "Daas Torah
> does not approve of them".)

I was always taught something along the lines of your first version.

I think it was R Yaakov Haber that I heard this from, but the idiom
could equally have been intended to me something more like (loosely)
"... isn't thinking with daas Torah".

I found the argument compelling enough to try to offer both translations.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

RJR:

> 
> Wanted to bounce an idea off of you all.
> I?m doing an ongoing class in Rambam?s Hilchot Yesodei Hatorah
> We compared the Rambam?s concept of ?knowing? (cognitively) Of God?s existence with Rav Lichtenstein?s Source of Faith piece which focuses on experience.
> 
> It seems to me that there was a fundamental paradigm shift (as defined by Thomas Kuhn) probably with the enlightenment and scientific revolution et al
> 
> In thinking about it I would say in general that the traditional
> yeshiva beit medrash approach ( as articulated by the Rav) does not
> look at paradigm shift but independent continuity of a unique
> discipline of halachic man yet here it seems to have taken place

I haven?t read RAL?s essay (link?), but doesn?t RYhL use this idea at the beginning of the Kuzari, a generation before the Rambam?

David Riceman

I haven?t read RAL?s essay (link?),

https://www.etzion.org.il/en/source-faith-faith-itself
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On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 09:48:25AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> There are four identical quadruplets brothers, Robert, Simon, Larry and
> Judah. Robert , Larry and Simon are all asymptomatic carriers of the
> corona virus but Judah is not...
> They all go outside to identical public events where their identities are
> not known. Robert infects...
> What shows up on each brothers' permanent record card in shamayim? Is
> it multidimensional?

Rachmana liba ba'i. Their records show each one's lack of concern for
other's safety. Consequences, if they are correlated at all and some
other aspect of hashgachah doesn't overwhelm this rule, megalgelim chov
al yedei chayav. Which implies that who gets whom sick would at most be
*indicative* of guilt for this or other deeds, not the actual thing he
is guilty of.

A person isn't judged for the results of their actions, or even for their
actions themselves. (So, I'm denying both sides of the question in the
subject line.) A person is judged "ba'asher hu sham" -- what kind of
changes those decisions and actions made in themselves.

I would take it for granted it's multidimensional. The person's "permanent
record card" is their own soul. And the effects of their actions can
improve one thing about the soul while damaging something else about it.

A comparatively easy example is tact. a person can make a person that
makes them more truthful, but gains that Emes at the expense of their
drive for Shalom. And even without the previous paragraphs, Hashem isn't
a Vatra -- the person will get the Tov that a more Emesdik soul has a
beis qibbul for, and get less of the Tov that comes with losing some
passion for Shalom.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 06:25:38AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R" Micha Berger wrote:
>> Using rules of safeiq rather than those of pesaq. We don't
>> which which to hold, so... And even then, not always; because
>> there are such chumeros in derabbanans, where the rule of
>> safeiq would be lehaqeil.

> Safeiq "rather than" pesaq?? Can the two be differentiated? Isn't psak
> *based* on safek, trying to figure out where Truth resides?

Not safeiq rather than pesaq, "rules of safeiq rather than those of
pesaq".

More reliance on safeiq deOraisa lehachmir, safeiq derabbanan lequlah
-- unless efshar levareir / it's easy enough to be machmir. Of course,
a baal nefesh may have a different definition of "easy enough".

As opposed to looking to which shitah is stated by the gadol bekhochmah
uveminyan (minyan rabbanim, rav with bigger following [looking at the
Rambam or the Rosh...]), the logic of the sevara behind each possible
pesaq, looking to see which pesaq was apparently accepted for how long
and how broadly, hefsed meruba, kavod haberios... You know, the rules
of pesaq.

These latter kind of rules tend to be invoked less often than in the
past.

I think it comes from the Gra's position on the comparative unreality
of pesaq after Rav Ashi and Ravina, taking the Rambam's "sof hora'ah"
quite literally. Picked up by the Soloveitchiks, and with the popularity
of Brisk among those who pasqen today...

Add to that the whole concept of lomdus. Whether Brisker or other
derakhim. When you value sevara much more than the other factors posqim
have to balance, and you learn how to explain the sevara of all sides
of a machloqes... There are fewer times the remaining rules of pesaq
rise to the level of giving a clear answer.

My latter two paragraphs feed into:
> As I see it, it's not that we have a lack of *faith* in psak, but that
> we're so confused about how it works. And especially, how it works nowadays
> when there's no Sanhedrin.

But we seem to disagree mostly on description rather than content:
> And it carries through to psak too. Can I really ignore the minority
> opinion? Without a Sanhedrin to actually discuss and vote, how can I be
> sure that the other camp is wrong? ...

"How can I be sure" IS a lack of faith in our ability to pasqen, as I
would use the terms. Maybe the insecurity comes from a lack of surity
we know how to do it right. I would still call it a lack of faith.

If you don't think pesaq can be done the way the Rif, the Rambam, the Tur,
the SA, the Levush, etc... did, that their precedent doesn't tell you
how to decide which of the eilu va'eilu should become halakhah lemaaseh,
that lack of faith in how to do pesaq has scary implications.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 03:41:45PM +0300, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote:
>> This reminds me of a question which would apply to almost every day when
>> we change the Sha'tz before Yishtabach. Isn't Pezukai d'zimrah framed
>> by Boruch She'amar as the beginning bracha and the end of Yishtabach as
>> the closing bracha, and if correct (and I may not be), should not the
>> same Sha'tz conclude what he started?

> I always understood the Shat"z to more of a "concept" than a person.

I called it an office, not the occupent.

But I didn't just reply to suggest a different phrasing of the same
idea. I have a theory why:

I think it's inherent in the idea that the sha"tz is a
*shaliach*. Personal identity is the opposite of the point of the post!

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

RDR mentioned the Kuzari before I found the time to reply.

I think what changed was in the discipline of philosophy. In the days
of the rishonim, Philosophy was itself a kind of religion. Look at the
opening paragraphs of ch. 1 of the Kuzari -- the king's survey includes
a Philosopher (1:1), a Muslim, a Christian, and then the chaver. A
Jewish Philosopher was a Scholasticist. Such that Rihal, even though
the Kuzari is a book of philosophy as we now use the term, saw himself
as anti-Philosophy.

Then came the scientific method and people realizing the power and
limitations of testing things empirically. The tensions between the
Empiricists, who trusted these methods, and the Idealists, who wanted all
knowledge to be as sound as Math, coming from self-evident postulates.
And then the Kantian Revolution through to Existentialism and now
Post-Modernism, etc... Philosophy less based on a confidence of being
able to prove what's out there and more focused on describing the world
as experienced.

I argued here a few years back that this is what drove the popularity
of universal hashgachah peratis. It's less a break from how rishonim
understood HP than looking at a different topic. To the rishonim,
a discussion of HP is all about its contrast to nature, randomness,
bechirah chofshi, etc... Nowadays, the discussion of HP is about what
it is we have bitachon in, how much hishatadlus do we need to invest
given that what happens is decided by hashgachah...

R Yehudah haLevi had a lack of faith in the idea that we can decisively
prove that's really out there. That's for Greeks, who lack the more sure
source of data -- mesorah. (1:13, 1:63) That mesorah part isn't very
Modern in terms of the discipline of philosophy, but not believing we
can ever really prove anything... Well, take this quote from 1:13:
    "Now ask the philosophers, and you will find that they do not
    agree on one action or one principle, since some doctrines can be
    established by arguments, which are only partially satisfactory,
    and still much less capable of being proved."
Sounds downright Post-Modern!

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Many have recently written how they have missed the full traditional
comforting process of shiva due to corona restrictions.

That has reawakened in me the question of why did Chazal cancel shiva
because of Yom tov?
If the catharsis and process of shiva is so comforting and desirable for
mourners, why did they take that away because of YT and not simply postpone
till after YT.
It's hard to say that after YT the shiva experience w be no longer necessary
or needed.

I saw someone suggest that "The souls of those who passed away now with
abbreviated burials and shivas were so pure they ascended directly to heaven
and did not require traditional mourning rituals."

That is hard to hear because shiva (and YT cancelling shiva) is a rabbinic
creation.

Suggestions?

Mordechai Cohen 
macohen...@gmail.com

That has reawakened in me the question of why did Chazal cancel shiva
because of Yom tov?
======================================
As one who sat shiva at the cemetery on erev Pesach, I tried to keep in
mind R'YBS's insight into true simcha as being lfnai hashem (which is what
we're supposed to be on shalosh regalim).  Seeing it through HKB"H's eyes
it's all good (we are human and so don't experience it as such).  So:
She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,  which
will allow us all to see more clearly
KT
Joel Rich

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