Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 51

Fri, 26 Jun 2020

• 1. Re: Akum and Nochri (Micha Berger)
• 2. avoiding the issue (Rich, Joel)
• 3. risk/reward (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: avoiding the issue (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: risk/reward (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Arukh haShulchan and Halachic Process (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: avoiding the issue (Micha Berger)
• 8. FW: Yehareig velo ya'avor (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Korach (cantorwolberg)

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 08:47:05PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Count me among those who "do not know when something is a din nokhri and
> when it is a din 'aku"m." And I WOULD like to know which is which.

Related is the topic of the famous and infamously overused Me'iri.

He distinguishes between outright aku"m and people who are gedurim
bedarkhei hadas. Which may be non-aku"m, or a subset of aku"m that make
up a third kind of nakhri, with dinim split between unthical akum, aku"m
whose religion teaches ethics, and ethical monotheists. And where would
monotheists whose religion divorces worship of the One G-d from ethics
go? Would they be aku"m, because such a one god isn't The One G-d?

Chodesh Tov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
Author: Widen Your Tent      Kippur with that intent.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

The mishna brura is full of examples where the author suggests avoiding the
issue rather than providing an answer by picking one authority's approach
over another. It's an approach - not sure why it found so much favor ( as
in a ben tora doesn't eat granola bars because of the difficulty in
determining the appropriate blessings). Thoughts?
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20200624/7a1075e6/attachment-0001.html>

Not commenting on the advice that was given on timing reopenings, but I'd
just point out that from a risk/reward standpoint at this point in time,
the Rabbis are probably wise to follow it in their own self-interest. Look
at the overgeneralized decision matrix - either they hold tight or loosen,
and either things get worse or they don't. The risk that things get worse
if they loosen has very bad consequences imho for them. This is true no
matter whether the worsening is in any way related to their decision or
not. In addition there is only gut feel as to how much any decision
increases risk. Unfortunately we tend to evaluate decisions only in
retrospect with the idea that "they should have known" even where that is
patently untrue rather than on risk/reward principles (would you take a bet
for getting $100 if someone rolled anything but double sixes in which case
you pay $5? What about if instead of $5 you have to give him your house?) 
How does halacha take these considerations into
  account?
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20200624/fff43702/attachment-0001.html>

On 24/6/20 12:22 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The mishna brura is full of examples where the author suggests avoiding 
> the issue rather than providing an answer by picking one authority's 
> approach over another. It's an approach - not sure why it found so much 
> favor ( as in a ben tora doesn't eat granola bars because of the 
> difficulty in determining the appropriate blessings). Thoughts?

Doesn't the gemara, all over the place, explicitly endorse such an 
approach?  Not getting into a safek.  Not eating something about which a 
shayla had been asked, even if the answer was "kosher".   At any rate it 
*far* predates the MB.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 4:25:14am GMT, R Joel Rich wrote:
> Not commenting on the advice that was given on timing reopenings, but I'd
> just point out that from a risk/reward standpoint at this point in time,
> the Rabbis are probably wise to follow it in their own self-interest...
>                  How does halacha take these considerations into account?

I cannot see justifying "self-interest" in and of itself as a halachic
motivator. That way leads Historical School Judaism and the C movement.
(To the extent that I don't think that's what you meant.)
BUT...

Well, pesaq does include societal concerns, in addition to black letter
law. There are things that are assur because of slippery slope concerns,
for example. Not just gezeiros, but because the next person may go one
step further.

So, I could see erring on the side that maintains emunas chakhamim
because it's better to miss a few minyanim (even for an aveil) that to
have people second guess a future pesaq about dinei nefashos or issurei
kareis! Especially in the current cultural climate, where second-guessing
authority is so common.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Mussar is like oil put in water,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   eventually it will rise to the top.
Author: Widen Your Tent                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:43:22PM +0100, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> A minhag chashuv seems to be a minhag of a particular place, following the
> rulings of their particular mara d'asra - even if other equivalently weighty
> talmidei chachamim disagree (including rulings such as milk and chicken in
> the place of Rabbi Yosi etc).  

Whereas I called this local pesawq idea "not really a minhag", except
by homonym.

See the Rosh Pesachaim 4:3 <https://www.sefaria.org/Rosh_on_Pesachim.4.3.1>.
He defines a minhag chashuv as one "shenahagu benei hamaqom al pi TC veTC
nahag imahem".

That doesn't sound like the description of a pesaq, although I guess that
could be fitted into the meaning if we had to. Why "veTC nahag imahem" for
a pesaq?

Closer to your minhag garua:
> The minhag [garua] is the one we are discussing here - one that appears in a
> certain place, or spreads from it and various scholars give it more or less
> weight.

Whereas the Rosh says a "minhag garua" is one "shenagahu me'atzmam davar
echad".

Sounds more like a minhag chashuv is being describes as being rabbinically
endorsed and followed, and a minhag garua as just a practice the masses do.

>          For example the Shach in Yoreh Deah hilchot Nedarim siman 214 Si'if
> 2 is quite dismissive, saying a minhag garua is just people are behaving
> this way (with the distinction that a scholar not from the locale does not
> need to follow such a minhag except publically).

(This is at s"q 7.)

And the AhS OC 320:12 cites the same Tosafos Shabbos 92b (d"h ve'im timzeh
lomar anshei) as distinguishing between minhag chashuv and minhag she'eino
chashuv. His case of a minhag she'eino chashuv is whether the fruit is
commonly squeezed in their specific locale. The application changes practice
-- whether or not sechiatah is allowed there, or whether it's shelo kedarkam.

> Note the reference "conducted themselves to do as a fence and a boundary for
> the Torah" - which I suspect is reflecting the idea that something that has
> to have a certain kind of Torah look and feel to be a valid minhag, even if
> it is a minhag garua, to distinguish from a minhag chashuv.

Like whether or not a given fruit is normally squeezed where you live???

To me it would seem that:
- halakhah, even a regionally accepted pesaq is one thing (eg BY chalaq);
- a minhag chashuv is what I was calling the technical use of the word
  "minhag" (eg glatt); and
- a minhag garua is something like: whether the local practice is to
  squeeze pomegranates or not -- with, or to eat raw onions or not --
  with the effect of whether to require a ha'adamah or a shehakol if
  you were to eat one.

>> This isn't about "custom". This is about halakhah. Would repeating
>> the birkhos hashachar because one is chazan be a berakhah levatalah,
>> or should it be done? Different use of the word "minhag". This is the
>> mimetic tradition thing you hear so much about. RYME does this a lot.

> I am not so sure.  The question is, if the opposite minhag had spread
> amongst the people - ie that the Shatz should say the blessings twice for
> those people who didn't know how, then would the Aruch HaShulchan not have
> been arguing for the other side, supporting it as a genuine minhag, because
> it has a genuine Torah look and feel to it?  I suspect he would have..

Yes, but I am not sure how that introduces uncertainty to the definition
of the word "minhag".

The AhS is talking about a regionally accepted halachic position. Yes,
he tends to assume that any practice that withstood the test of time
must be textually valid, and that drives him to invest effort looking
for that textual validity.

It could be because "im lo nevi'im heim benei nevi'im heim", or "she'eiris
Yisrael lo ya'asu avla" or some other quote about siyata diShamaya giving
authority to mimeticism directly.

Or it could be because he trusts the peer review of rabbanim not
complaining about the practice, and it's the implicit formal / "textual"
pesaq of those rabbanim he is leaning on.

Or, something else... I don't want to create false dichotomies just
because I can only think of those two options.

So, if the AhS were to support the BY's ruling about chalaq, he would
figure out a reason why, and when he supported the Rama's, he also
figured out a textual support. All of which is about din. Without demoting
anything to whatever you want to call the practice of only eating "glatt".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You will never "find" time for anything.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   If you want time, you must make it.
Author: Widen Your Tent                        - Charles Buxton
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 04:22:24AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The mishna brura is full of examples where the author suggests avoiding
> the issue rather than providing an answer by picking one authority's
> approach over another. It's an approach - not sure why it found so
> much favor (as in a ben tora doesn't eat granola bars because of the
> difficulty in determining the appropriate blessings). Thoughts?

This strategy was always with us. Like what to do when bentching after
"shaleshudis" when Rosh Chodesh already started. More common in hilkhos
berakhos than anywhere else, I think.

Maybe it gives gravitas to the story (quoting the version from
https://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/41/Q2/ ):
    A story is told of a Rebbe and a chassid. The chassid asked the Rebbe:
    "You have an apple, and I have an apple. You make a bracha and eat
    a slice, and I make a bracha and I eat a slice. After you eat a bit,
    then your chassidim come running to eat the remainder of your apple
    (a Chassidic custom known as shirayim); but no one is interested in
    the remnants of my apple! What's the difference?

    The Rebbe smiled warmly and replied, "You make a bracha in order to
    eat, whereas I eat in order to make a bracha!"

But in general, there is an increasing reluctance to pasqen in some
circles. Whether Brisker chumeros or the MB's advice to either play safe
in some places or avoid the question in another. So, we're seeing more
and more of it.

I think it relates directly to the loss of confidence in mimeticism. It
used to be that unless the books convinced you strongly otherwise,
if the people were doing something for a while now without the rabbis
stopping them yet, it must be accepted pesaq. Leaves a lot fewer open
questions that lack a clear halachic determination.

In circles where lomdus is popular, unlike the MB, the lamdan's ability
to find a sevara to both sides of a machloqes will bring him to more
stalemates than other ways of learning the texts. Lomdus trains you
away from taking sides.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

I posted on this issue here and on another list:

> If a Ben Noach [Noahide, i.e. non-Jew] is being forced to abrogate
> one of his 7 mitzvot, does he have a requirement to give up his life
> rather than comply?  Presumably he is not directly covered by vechay
> bahem [you shall live in them].
----------------------------------------
I received this:

If you accept the authority of Rambam, this is black-letter law.  See Sefer
Shoftim, Hilkhoth Mlakhim UMilxmotheyhem, Chapter 10, Paragraph 2: "A Ben-Noax
who is compelled to violate one of his commandments is allowed to do so

Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
.
=================================
Thanks for the cite!  If you check out the mishneh lmelech there he refers
to the parshat drachim derech atarim ( drasha #2) who makes exactly the
argument I proposed as why a ben noach would be required to give up his
life rather than kill someone.
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

Among the ancestors of Korach listed at the beginning of the story,
the name of Yaakov is conspicuously omitted (16:1), ?because he
sought mercy for himself that his name not be mentioned in connection
with strife? (Rashi).

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)