Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 42

Tue, 26 May 2020

• 1. Materials valid for a Keli Sheni (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: The tallit without tzitzit (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Ultra-Orthodox suffering in COVID-19 pandemic due to sins of community (Micha Berger)
• 4. Why we mourn during the omer Model" in New Jersey: Rabbi Aaron Kotler (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: FW: Plants in Cities Coronavirus Curfew (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Materials valid for a Keli Sheni (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Street Minyanim (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Street Minyanim/sh'as hadchak (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: "shemo"s" as an acronym for shenayim miqra (Michael Poppers)
• 10. Re: "shemo"s" as an acronym for shenayim miqra (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Street Minyanim/sh'as hadchak (Chana Luntz)

.
As I prepare my tea and coffee on Shabbos, I sometimes marvel at the idea
that when I pour the water from the urn to a cup and then to another cup,
it has cooled down enough to be incapable of Bishul (according to Rav Moshe
Feinstein). And yet, my insulated mug keeps it above yad soledes bo for
close to an hour - no exaggeration!

Skimming through some random issues of the OU's "Daf Hakashrus", I came
across this psak from Rav Yisroel Belsky z"l: (
https://oukosher.org/content/uploads/2017/10/2017.09-10-Daf25-10g.pdf -
page 19 of the pdf file, marked as page 57 in the publication)

> Thermoses and Styrofoam cups are designed to *preserve* heat.
> Since the leniencies associated with a keli sheni stem from
> the *cooling* effect of the walls of the vessel, Rav Belsky has
> stated that Thermoses and Styrofoam cups do not have the status
> of a keli sheni when receiving food and beverages from a keli
> rishon.

It's not clear whether Rav Belsky was talking about Keli Sheni in Shabbos
or in Kashrus. But even if he was referring to the kashrus implications, it
would certainly apply to Shabbos as well. According to this, when one takes
hot water from the urn, it should go into an ordinary keli, not one which
is designed to preserve heat, so that it would be a keli sheni. I would
presume that if one wants to end up with a keli shlishi, that one too,
would need to be an ordinary keli, not specifically designed to preserve
heat. Then - and *only* then according to Rav Belsky - is it cool enough to
be considered a keli shlishi.

This psak is appealing (as I explained in my first paragraph), even if it
is inconvenient. But it turns out that Rav Shimon Eider (page 384) brings
numerous sources that a "Thermos" or "insulated cup" DO become a keli
sheni. Shemirat Shabbat K'Hilchata (1:70 in the 5739 edition, 1:2 in the
5770) also says that a Thermos bottle becomes a keli sheni.

Akiva Miller
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On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 01:27:06PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> It is my least favorite story, yet it is attested to by a highly reliable
> source and deals with a very important (IMHO) question. Hence I raised
> it without the details to discuss the application today to zoom minyanim

We discussed the story in a thread started by RJK
at http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2018q2/042647.html

There is a variation whether one woman or a group of women were involved,
which is why RJK questioned its veracity.

R Mayer Twersky, R Meiselman, the Frimers and R Seth Mandel all tell
the story. R Meiselman and the Frimers both write that they were told
the story by R Yehuda Kelemer, the rabbi of the YI of Brookline at
the time, and that the story happened in the mid-70s.

RSM writes:
> Most of the women accepted this response, because the Rav treated
> their question with genuine respect and listened to their grievances.

So, I guess you had to be there.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 46th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                       "unity" be over domineering?

On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 05:17:58AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>> But again, even in the Rambam, the response to suffering is to look for
>> what to do teshuvah about. Not to think you do or can find a cause. The
>> response is not about causality.

> See Chulin 7b:
> Rava  seems to think some suffering is not announced above
>     R. Eleazar said: The blood of a bruise atones like the blood of
>     a burnt-offering. Raba added: It is only the blood of a second
>     bruising of the thumb of the right hand that atones, and then only
>     if it happened to one who was about to do a religious act.

I don't see it.

I am not sure Rava is disagreeing with R Chanina. To me it looks like he
is only arguing with R Elazar.

I contrasted two things -- thinking you can find cause, and using an event
to take a lesson.

R Elazar and Rava are discussing a third thing -- atonement.

BTW, the Maharsha asks about "sheluchei mitzvah" and how this person
could get hurt. He offers an answer that I found elegant: We're talking
about what atones kedam olah. The olah is kaparah for hirhusei haleiv.
And to the extent the sheliach's thoughts are not lesheim mitzvah, he
is indeed vulnerable.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 46th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                       "unity" be over domineering?

The first two se'ifim in the Arukh haShulchan mention two reasons:
talmidei R' Aqiva and the Crusades.

But I think one can go earlier.

The omer is a special time in Avodas BHMQ. But unlike other times when
there are special qorbanos, there is no issur aveilus. The omer is the
one time we are permitted to mourn the loss of a special qorban.

And then, a generation after losing the BHMQ to sin'as chinam, R Aqiva
rebiulds talmud Torah. But we hadn't learned enough. The students aren't
guilty of outright sin'as chinam, but they still lacked kavod.

A period when people were already feeling the absence of the joy of the
qorban omer became a period when they had to face the truth that they
weren't ready yet.

The death of talmidei R Aqiva stirred all that up again.

It wasn't "just" the death of 24,000 of the best and the brightest. It
was the death of the hope they brought.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 46th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                       "unity" be over domineering?

As for the original question of the aesthetic of gardens in a city, and
whether our tradition was to promote or avoid them...

There are eidot (eg Egypt) that make a point of surrounding their batei
keneset with gardens, so that one has a calming atmosphere to provide
yishuv hada'as before davening.

The synagogues in Singapore, which is Iraqi and build in communication
with the Ben Ish Chai (a single builder so only one data point) also
had parks in front of them. (One is now a parking lot; but the more
regularly functioning synagogue has a beautiful area with benches.)

Similarly, Ashkenazi shuls in the Middle Ages had inner courtyards.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 01:52:48PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> https://oukosher.org/content/uploads/2017/10/2017.09-10-Daf25-10g.pdf
> -
> page 19 of the pdf file, marked as page 57 in the publication)

> > Thermoses and Styrofoam cups are designed to *preserve* heat.
> > Since the leniencies associated with a keli sheni stem from
> > the *cooling* effect of the walls of the vessel, Rav Belsky has
> > stated that Thermoses and Styrofoam cups do not have the status
> > of a keli sheni when receiving food and beverages from a keli
> > rishon.
> 
> It's not clear whether Rav Belsky was talking about Keli Sheni in Shabbos
> or in Kashrus. But even if he was referring to the kashrus implications, it
> would certainly apply to Shabbos as well. According to this, when one takes
> hot water from the urn, it should go into an ordinary keli, not one which
> is designed to preserve heat, so that it would be a keli sheni...

Hatmanah is permitted in a keli sheini. Which you would think contradicts
the above line of reasoning.

But I would suggest that if the keli itself is the insulator, then it's
still hatmanah still during irui keli rishon.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 46th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                       "unity" be over domineering?

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 08:15:55PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Getting back to the thread's topic of "street minyanim", I remember once
> asking, many decades ago, about a particular shita which allowed a child to
> be the tenth for a minyan, but only if it was a sh'as had'chak. I asked
> what "sh'as had'chak" means in this context; wouldn't it apply to *every*
> case of where only nine show up? ...

> The answer I got (which the chevra may or may not agree with) is that not
> all such cases are the same...

I had to make a call on this one. I was running minyanim for Yamim Noraim
in a failing O shul of what was once a sizable community in Massachussets.
It's Yom Kippur, the case came up, there was no one to ask.

One time, as I turned around for the qaddish between Yizkor and Mussaf,
people slipped out and we lost the minyan.

Everyone in the congregation (if not, nearly so) also belonged to the
local C-nagogue. And I was afraid that not having a minyan that year
would accelerate the shul's demise, and people wouldn't even plan on
showing up next year.

(The shul did have minyan and other programming during the year when the
Chabad shaliach from a college some towns over would organize something
for them.)

But it was only because of that fear that it would end O minyanim in this
town years earlier than otherwise that I considered it a she'as hadechaq.
And had an 11 yr old boy (the only boy there) hold a sefer Torah.

As a side-note: The boy was still proud the next year that he helped
make the minyan. I hope it gave him some significant push to stay more
affiliated. But I can't say I foresaw that outcome.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 46th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                       "unity" be over domineering?

On the side-subject of whether she'as hadechaq means that we go more
lenient than iqar hadin or pair off norms that go beyond the iqar hadin...

Note that we often are allowed to do beshe'as hadechaq something labeled
bedi'eved. This identification of she'as hadechaq as a kind of bedi'eved
appear to argue for the former interpretation.

Se R Mordechai Torczyner's collection of sources at
http://www.hamakor.org/metahala/dechak.htm

(I think this whole discussion revolves more around how to define the
idiom "iqar hadin" than anything of practical substance.)



On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:29:32PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
>                        We say two brochos. (me: after all, if there was
> a safek on the second, we wouldn't say it.) But we say "baruch shem" to
> give kavod to Rambam who rules one brocho. But since the second brocho is
> ikkar hadin, we are supposed to pause an adjust our head tefillin to show
> that we really meant that second brocho, before we say baruch shem. (M"B
> complains that to many say the second brocho, and baruch shem, and then
> adjust tefillin, which undoes what we are intending.) (A dissenting
> opinion on this example: R"R adds: the Aruch HaShulchan can't fathom this
> whole idea, and brings the idea that tefillin is like K'Sh, kabbala ol,
> and, therefore, we say baruch shem here just like after we say shema.)

He says the first berakhah is a birkhas hamitzvah, and the second if
a brikhas hoda'ah on being able to make an "os" -- "ke sheim Hashem
niqra eilekha is specifically darshened about the shel rosh.
https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.25.10

We noted here in the past (I couldn't find who) that there are other
cases where "asher qidishanu bemitzvosav" is in a berakhah that isn't
a birkhas hamitzvah.

Or else there would be no question over the function of Birkhas
haTorah. Rambam (Seifer haMitzvos) says it's deOraisa, and the Ramban
(ad loc) and Minchas Chinukh (430:5) say it's a birkhas shevakh.

So, the text of the berakhah doesn't rule out his explanation.


-----


se'if on July 6th.

The cycle starts Shavuos (this Friday). RYGB posted on YouTube
shiurim for the first three days. See the Arukh haShulchan Yomi
playlist at https://tinyurl.com/ahsYomi-youtube

At the program's homepage <https://www.aishdas.org/ahs-yomi> you
can download a calendar for the full cycle, and there is a tool
for printing the text for a given day or range of days.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 46th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   6 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Malchus: How can some forms of
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                       "unity" be over domineering?

In Avodah V38n41, RSBA replied to R'Micha:
>> (Note, I learned about "shemo's" as an acronym for shenayim miqra from a
chassidishe rebbe in Jr High.

Personally, I have only encountered that acronymn inside the chassidish
veldt.)
> See the first Baal Haturim in Parshas Shemos.
(and I've seen that reference elsewhere, e.g. fn1 to the
Halachipedia article I previously mentioned, URL
https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Shnayim_Mikra_V%27Echad_Targum;
but I cannot find it in my MG or in my ArtScroll BhT, nor do I see any
commentary at https://mg.alhatorah.org/Full/Shemot/1.1#e0n6, including the
Tur, speaking to the word "shmos", or the first or last letter of a group
of four words, being an acronym for the *mitzva*; so RSBA, if you have a
text that you can digipic/scan or point to, please let us know.  Even
assuming that BhT did, say, note the letter from a group of four words
spelling out the acronym for this mitzva, the type of comment he often made
[or quoted from his teachers]...)
a comment noting an allusion to the *mitzva* is not the same as referring
to the *mitzva* by its acronym, and methinks R'Micha was considering the
latter when he wrote what he wrote.
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On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 08:04:52PM -0400, Michael Poppers wrote:
> a comment noting an allusion to the *mitzva* is not the same as referring
> to the *mitzva* by its acronym, and methinks R'Micha was considering the
> latter when he wrote what he wrote.

What I wrote unexpectedly became way more conversation than it deserved.
Although it was nice to have triggered citation of meqoros.

I was just thinking of those of us who aren't from Chassidishe communities,
or didn't have my experience of going to a Middle School where the rabbeim
were Chassidish, and might not recognize the acronym right away. So, before
explaining the acronym, I explained why they shouldn't feel silly not
recognizing something Zev took for granted. While not making it sound like
I was accusing Zev of intentionally obfuscating.

You could even know the Baal haTurim, the Levush and/or the AhS and not
recognize the acronymn shem"os when used as a noun in conversation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 47th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   6 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Hod sheb'Malchus: What is glorious about
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF             unity-how does it draw out one's soul?

RMB writes:

<<On the side-subject of whether she'as hadechaq means that we go more
lenient than iqar hadin or pair off norms that go beyond the iqar hadin...
Note that we often are allowed to do beshe'as hadechaq something labeled
bedi'eved. This identification of she'as hadechaq as a kind of bedi'eved
appear to argue for the former interpretation.>>

I am not sure that RZS will agree. Presumably he will still say that the
ikar hadin is what we are prepared to posken bidieved.

<<Se R Mordechai Torczyner's collection of sources at
http://www.hamakor.org/metahala/dechak.htm>>

Copying RMT as I was surprised to see that he included the Sde Chemed
marchechet Get siman 29 si'if 6 (which discusses the question briefly), but
not where the Sde Chemed discusses it in more detail, which can be found in
marechet daled siman 61 (page 70) and marechet daled (pe'at hasede) klallim,
klal lamed (p139).  There the Sde Chemed quotes the following achronim as
holding that a sh'as hadchak is like a bideved:

a) the Shulchan Gavoha (in the klalim at the beginning of hilchot pesach
letter 71)
b) the Teferet Yisrael (perek 5 of peah mishna 2)
c) the Ma'amar Mordechai  siman 204 letter 7
[Those three he summarises in klal lamed and brings some of the sources they
rely on]  
In siman 61 the Sdei brings those three just as source references, but also
another source for the Tiferet Yisrael (sheviit 44), the Lev Chaim chelek 2
page 101c, the Avodat Moshe page 77c (he also refers to himself in a
different place in ma'arechet get - in siman 18 letter 4 as well as the one
quoted by RMT) Chaim v'Shalom chelek 2 siman 50 page 100c; Sharei Teshuva at
the beginning of 527 as well as the Shvut Ya'akov that RMT has.

And in klal Lamed the Sdei Chemed explains that he returns to the matter
because in some cases, people learn bideved from sh'as hadchak, and in
others sh'as hadchak from bideved, and so goes on to summarise these three.

Always find the Sde Chemed a great way to get into the achronim on these
kinds of points.


[Email #2]

In my previous post on this I quoted the Rashba (Shut HaRashba Chelek 1
siman 253):

<<"that we do not say it is appropriate to rely on ploni in a time when
there is one who is greater than him in wisdom and number.  And the halacha
pesuka
[CL: is this not the same as ikar hadin?] is that they go after the one
greatest in wisdom and number.  And even in a sh'as hadchak we do not rely
on the small one in wisdom or in number.  And so in a place of disagreement
between an individual and the many unless there is a sh'as hadchak that
there is in it a hefsed meruba or similar to this.  And like that which is
said in the first perek of Nida (9b) [CL This was one of the key sources I
brought regarding sh'as hadchak, see previous post]>>

And I wanted to add to this as I think it is instructive to look more
closely at this particular source (ie in Nida) when examining our question,
namely when we rely on a minority opinion in a sh'as hadchak, is it because
the halacha is really like that minority opinion, ie that is the ikar hadin
and it is just in a l'chatchila situation we are more stringent, and prefer
to follow others opinions as well, or is this a derogation from poskening
like the ikar hadin.

The reason I believe this particular gemora in Nida is particularly
instructive is because of the person on whom it is deemed to be  "fitting to
rely" in this case - namely Rabbi Eliezer.  And similarly in Shabbas 130b,
it was again Rabbi Eliezer on whom they ended up having to rely.  The case
is described there in Shabbas as follows:

"Rabbi Shimon ben Lekish said in the name of Rabbi Yehuda haNasi: Once they
forgot and did not bring the knife on the eve of Shabbas, and they brought
it on Shabbats, and the matter was very hard for the Chachamim, how could
they leave the words of the Chachamim and do like Rabbi Eliezer: Firstly,
because shamuti hu, and secondly because an individual and a many, the
halacha is like the many."

So, Rabbi Eliezer has two strikes against him.  One he was an individual
against the rabbim, and secondly "shamuti hu".

Now Rashi explains shamuti hu there on Shabbas 130b  "they excommunicated
him, as it says (in Baba Metzia 59b) [after the not in heaven incident], but
in the Talmud Yerushalmi it explains: shamuti hu - he was a student of
Shammai."  

And Tosphos comments (Nida 7b): - Rashi explains that they excommunicated
him, and this is questionable because generally they do not use the language
shemta [for excommunication] and the event itself in Hazahav (Baba Metzia
59b) they used the language "beracha" [to mean excommunication], and Rabbanu
Tam and the Rashbam explain that shamuti hu is that he was one of the
students of Beit Shammai, and so brings the Yerushalmi the first perek of
Trumot.

Now it is true that in Nida 7b Rav Yehuda rules that the halacha follows
Rabbi Eliezer in at least four matters, but clearly where they are only
relying on him in a sh'as hadchak is not considered one of them.  And so the
general principle (as per Shabbas 130b) is that the halacha is not like
Rabbi Eliezer.

So if you say that it is fitting to rely on Rabbi X b'sh'as hadchak means
that Rabbi X's position is really ikar hadin - then that would mean that,
according to the Yerushalmi and the various ba'alei Tosfos, the teachings of
Beis Shammai as articulated by Rabbi Eliezer, even thoughbeis shammai
bimkom beis Hillel aina mishna (Brachos 36b) can be characterised as the
ikar hadin.  Or alternatively (if you take Rashi's pshat) that the opinions
of Rabbi Eliezer are ikar hadin, even though we rule lo b'shamayim hi.

Both of which, at least to me, seem very difficult.

Regards
Chana


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