Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 22

Wed, 25 Mar 2020

• 1. Zoom Seder (Micha Berger)
• 2. minor fasts? (Rich, Joel)
• 3. chassidut (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Gloves at the seder (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: chassidut (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: chassidut (Micha Berger)
• 7. The 5780th Pasuk (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Gloves at the seder (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Proving the Existence of G-d from the Existence of Self (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: coronavirus (Micha Berger)

 From http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/277764

I see two distinct conversations here:
- Leaving an audio-video program on for YT use. I notice Sepharadi names.
  ROY is more meiqil on things like passive element PA systems than
  Ashkenazim are. Relevent?
- Being yotzei berakhos, would answering be an amein yesoma, etc...

When it came to Zoom and Qaddish, RHS recently ruled that you aren't
joined into a minyan to permit the saying of Qaddish. But, in another
context, had 10 men gathered and someone else hears the Qaddish via the
internet, they may answer and he explicitly raised and rejected the
amein yesomah question. No worse than answering amein after the flag
was raised in the Great Synagogue of Alecandria.

-Micha

    IsraelNationalNews.com
    Halakhic ruling: 'Zoom' software can be used during Seder
    Arutz Sheva Staff , 24/03/20 23:33

    A group of rabbis, including Rabbi Eliyahu Abergel, head of
    Jerusalem's rabbinical court, the Chief of Rabbi of Kiryat Gat
    Rabbi Shlomo Ben Hamo, and Rabbi Aharon Cohen of Yakir, have signed
    a halakhic ruling permitting the Passover Seder to be held in the
    presence of the "Zoom" program.

    The ruling refers to the possibility of holding the Seder with the
    software being opened before the start of the holiday, so that elderly
    people who cannot be physically close to their family members due
    to the coronavirus epidemic can hold the Seder while seeing their
    family through the program.

    The rabbis state in the ruling that there is no need to worry about
    the issue of operating the program, since it is launched before the
    start of the holiday.

    Regarding the concern that they will be lenient on this issue on
    other holidays as well, the rabbis state that there is no place
    for such concerns since it is clear that these days are a time of
    emergency and the permit is only valid for an emergency.

    "Therefore we are permitting, stressing that this is only for
    emergencies, and only for the purpose of this year's Seder for
    those who need it. And just as they permit a non-dangerous patient
    to receive treatment on Shabbat so as to cure him of his illness,
    so is the case here," the rabbis wrote.

The Mishna Brura in O"C 552 states that a "b'al nefesh" should observe the
restrictions of Tisha B'av on the other minor fasts. Anyone know if any
significant sub-community does this? How does observance of the compare
with other b'al nefesh call outs?
Kt
Joel rich


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A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable
approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as
long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the
student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt
the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would have
failed this test. Thoughts?
Kt
Joel rich

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More and more, I am seeing people everywhere wearing masks and gloves to
prevent the spread of the coronavirus. Let's suppose someone was
legitimately advised to do so at the Seder. What advice might be given to
him?

I imagine that it's a no-brainer to move the mask away for eating and
drinking, but I wonder about the gloves. Any other day of the year, the
gloves MIGHT tempt one to simply skip the ritual handwashing, but at the
Seder, tradition has assigned great significance to each of the 15 steps,
and we would not want to skip any of them.

For Urchatz, prior to Karpas, we skip the bracha anyway, so I don't see
much downside to removing the gloves, washing, and putting them back on,
and then eating the karpas.

But Rachtza, before Motzi, is more problematic. One option would be to wash
without the bracha, like at Urchatz. After all, even if we skip the bracha,
the ikar is the washing, so we will have done all 15 steps adequately.

Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so
quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point
*without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim. In this case, I
wonder whether it is sufficient to eat a mashehu without gloves, or a whole
kezayis, or even a whole kebaytza. I also wonder if it needs to be at the
very beginning, or if he can do it (eat matza without gloves) even later on
during the meal.

Anyone have any other ideas or suggestions?

Right now, all this is just l'halacha. I hope no one is in a serious enough
situation to need these ideas l'maaseh. But, as always, "forewarned is
forearmed" and it is better to think about these possibilities before they
arise.

Akiva Miller
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On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable 
> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they?re all ok as 
> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the 
> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt 
> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut?s originator would 
> have failed this test. Thoughts?
> Kt

He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his 
colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe, 
Achiyah Hashiloni.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy Pesach
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 04:40:14PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 25/3/20 2:31 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>> A rav visiting a high school spoke to the students concerning acceptable
>> approaches to avodat hashem. His major point was that they're all ok as
>> long as they have a gadol who supports the approach. I wondered to the
>> student whether the rav, who identified with a branch of chassidut, felt
>> the irony of making such a statement when chassidut's originator would
>> have failed this test. Thoughts?

> He had plenty of gedolim who supported his approach, both among his
> colleagues in the Tzadikim Nistarim movement, and of course his rebbe,
> Achiyah Hashiloni.

The advice wouldn't apply to actual gedolim. And the Besh"t himself
would qualify. No need to rely on neshamos of the deceased, who may or
may not qualify as "gedolim", if we wanted to play games with the exact
limits of a relative term.

If we didn't limit the advice to being only applicable to non-gedolim,
then derakhim could only exist if we allow them to evolve. In which
case, the Besh"t's founding of Chassidus still qualifies, since the
seeds were there.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

There is a tradition that every year's events are hinted at in the
corresponding pasuq.

So, for example, the 5,746th pasuq is Devarim 31:24:
   Vayhi kekhalos Moshe likhtov...
Which is an interesting pasuq to find in the pasuq corresponding to
the year of RMF's petirah.

So, someone looked up 5,780, Devarim 32:28:
   Ki goy oveid eitzos heimah
   ve'ein bahem tevunah.

Of course, I don't know what to make of that. <grin>



OTOH, talmidei haGra have a tradition that Maaseh Bereishis corresponds
to the first millenium, the rest of Bereishis to the 2nd, Shemos to
the third, etc... So that the Gra considered the year of his birth,
5,480, embodied in Devarim 25:25 (the 480th pasuq of Devarim):
   Even sheleimah vetzedeq yihyeh lekha...
From which the seifer Even Sheleimah gets its name. And it hints at
"R Eliyahu Shelomo".

This is why so many Talmidei haGra made aliyah in 5,601. Because the
601st pasuq of Devarim is the title pasuq of Ki-Savo:
   Vehayah ki savo el ha'aretz...

(I guess they did not agree with the Rambam's ban on lachashov es
haqeitz.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and helps us cope with adversity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF       - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:18:33AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Or maybe the bracha is more important, and should not be dismissed so
> quickly. If so, he should make sure to eat some matza at some point
> *without* the gloves, to justify the Al Netilas Yadayim...

I think it's more difficult than that.

He would have to take off the gloves before Rachtzah and have them of
long enough to necessitate a 2nd netilas yadayim. If his hands are
definitely still tahor from the first washing, how could he make a
berakhah on the 2nd?

See AhS OC 158:13
<https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.158.13>,
where RYME writes that this question relies on whether we say netilas
yadayim requires kavanah (see 159), the SA and Rama hold it does not,
and therefore no berakhah. And even if the question were still open --
safeiq berakhos lehaqeil anyway.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Education is not the filling of a bucket,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but the lighting of a fire.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - W.B. Yeats
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 09:25:10PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 4/3/20 1:59 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> > A transcendental argument does not appeal to anything factual. Instead,
> > asks what must be true if certain features of human experience are
> > accepted as given.
> 
> One trap to avoid, though, is to assume that ones own experience is
> universal....

Of course, Kant was speaking of phenomena like space and time, time
having an arrow... Things pretty surely universal.

> https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizing-from-one-example
...
>     Upon hearing this, my response was "How the stars was this actually
>     a real debate? Of course we have mental imagery. Anyone who doesn't
>     think we have mental imagery is either such a fanatical Behaviorist
>     that she doubts the evidence of her own senses, or simply insane."
>     Unfortunately, the professor was able to parade a long list of
>     famous people who denied mental imagery, including some leading
>     scientists of the era. And this was all before Behaviorism even
>     existed.

And yet today, aphantasia is found in only 1%-3% of the population.
https://www.livescience.com/61183-what-is-aphantasia.html
Slightly less common than legal blindness or visual impairment in the US.
https://www.cdc.gov/visionhealth/basic_information/vision_loss_burden.htm

But no one would say that making deductions about reality based on how
sighted people experience the world is flawed because there are
non-sighted people.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   others come to love him very naturally, and
Author: Widen Your Tent      he does not need even a speck of flattery.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:56:30PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote:
> On 3/11/2020 4:20 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>> Due to quarantine, a number of people were forced to rely on shitos
>> that say one is yotzei listening to the megillah via electronic
>> transmission, such as http://www.yutorah.org/live

> Who referenced, in their analysis, the Gemara in Sukkah about parish or
> rimon?

You mean Sukkah 31a, on the limits of maqim she'i efshar? The sugya
there is that there is no mitzvah to take 3 minim or a different fruit
if an esrog is unavailable.

If listening via electronic transmission is consider shemi'ah WRT
megillah, then there is no parish or rimon equivalent. It presumes the
point under discussion, and would only be an argument if someone were
to say that lekhol hadei'os it's not shemi'ah, but do it anyway. Not
relying on shitos dechuyos beshe'as hadechaq.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp           Decisions are complex.
Author: Widen Your Tent                  The Torah is complex.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                              - R' Binyamin Hecht


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