Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 14

Tue, 25 Feb 2020

• 1. AI/ML(Machine learning) (Sholom Simon)
• 2. Re: Mistaken Minhagim (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Haneitz? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: donkeys by Yoseif and his brothers (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Haneitz? (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Haneitz? (Micha Berger)

"Rich, Joel" <JR...@Segalco.com> wrote:

Some thoughts on AI/ML(Machine learning) and a psak generator:
But it will happen imho. And since lots of psak (if not all) has lots of
unarticulated premises, it will be interesting to see what ML extrapolates.
In the outside world the man machine partnership is one model (others say
machine only!)  Any thoughts on how this might play out?

I can't recall if somebody already sent a link to this interesting article
(to me: utterly fascinating), which is davka on AI/ML vis-a-vis texts.  In
it, he talks about future possibilities.

https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/torah-study-and-the-digital-revolution-a-glimpse-of-the-future/

(PS: some of the future tools are available on-line, free, in beta form
already.)

It seems to me that AI/ML might *help* a posek, in discovering potentially
unarticulated premises -- but the posek himself would need to judge whether
the machine-made connections make sense or not.

-- Sholom
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On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:17:50AM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote:
> There are other mistaken minhagim which originated, not in the hamon
> `am, but in the scholarly class themselves, and which are not condemned
> by the scholarly class, because they benefit the scholarly class. An
> example of this category is the practice of earning a living from
> teaching Torah sheb`al peh, which is clearly forbidden by Jewish law.

Well, that last clause is an assumption. We don't always hold like
the Rambam.

There is ample precedent across a number of mitzvos of allowing payment
of sekhar bitul. The Rambam says that talmud Torah is different because
of the prohibition against turning the Torah into a qardom lachopor bo.
(Avos 4:5) But many commentaries on Avos 4:5 disagree, limiting the
prohibition to payment for the TT itself. E.g. RO miBartenura allows a
teacher of children to be paid for babysitting and how to use te'amim
for punctuation. (Me, I would have thought that latter was Torah, but
the Bartenura disagrees apparently.)

R Chaim Volozhiner (ad loc) asks how this relates to "im ein Torah ein
qemach". Given the other mishnah, how can it be assur to use the Torah
to make your daily bread?

Bereishis Rabba 99:9 is quoted by Rashi on Devarim 33:18 "semach Zevulun
betzeisekha, veYissachar beOhalekha". Quoted by kollel supporters often
enough. So I'll just provide the key phrase in the original:
    Zevulun ... mistakeir venosein lesokh piv shel Yissachar
    veheim yoshevim ve'osqim baTorah

A couple of Rashi's later, Rashi uses Bereishis Rabba 72:5 to prove that
Yissachar headed the Sanhedrin and set the calendar. So, maybe they're
paid for the auxiliary services learning enables they're paid for,
and not the learning itself.

Thinking out loud:
The Chinukh (#395) says that maaser rishon was for Hashem's Kavod,
that it would be wrong for His servants to be impoverished. Which is
a way for others to serve HQBH as well without turning avodas H' into
a qardom lachapor bo. And it would explain the poetic cicumlocution
instead of just "don't take pay".

But the above argument isn't about allowing payment if the attitude toward
it is Hashem-centered. I just think the Rambam goes further than most in
prohibiting payment for aspects of kollel life other than the learning
itself. And the famous medrash about Yissachar-Zevulun does support that
"most".



On to a very different topic, same subject line...

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 01:20:47PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
> I recall in my youth that there were individuals who
> consistently stood for the entire leining. I would
> assume that was their minhag.

My father does so. (Consistently, until he became an octogenarian.
Amu"sh.)

My father got this practice from RYBS. It is the minhag of beis Brisk,
not the Bergers. Which makes sense, given Brisk's attention to the Rambam,
and as R Sholom Simon wrote on Tue, 11 Feb 11:43am EST about standing
for the diberos:
>                                        he Rambam also held that we never
> change the trop. And so, lishitaso, this makes sense. since he holds that
> we should always leyn aseres hadibros in ta'am tachton, and so it appears
> we are placing more importance on one part of the Torah above other parts.

> My understanding, further, is that RYBS concluded that when we leyn with
> ta'am elyon then it becomes clear that we are re-enacting kabalos haTorah,
> in which case it's perfectly fine to stand.

Except that RYBS resolved the question in the other way -- stood for
everything.

Of course, RYBS agreed that iqar hadin was to sit, and therefore would
still find need to defend the minhag of only standing for the diberos.

Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean
    a- pesaqim specific to a community
    b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin
    c- ... anything else?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
Author: Widen Your Tent      again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best
> practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should
> they daven? what else should they do?)?

Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day,
and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven
is at the beginning of that time range?

Davening after amud hashachar and before haneitz or from the fourth hour
to chatzos is only bedi'eved.

So haneitz is zerizim maqdimin to be yotzei lekhat-chila.

I presume you're asking something deeper, but I am missing it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When one truly looks at everyone's good side,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   others come to love him very naturally, and
Author: Widen Your Tent      he does not need even a speck of flattery.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 06:25:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Later heard R' M Taragin mention that R' Amital elsewhere looked at
: chamor and saw chomer(material world)

The Gra says a man riding a chamor is used as a symbol to show that they
are in charge of their chomer side.

Whereas Bil'am rode an ason. (I don't recall if the Gra gives "ason"
symbolic meaning, or if the point that is wasn't chamor=chomer. Me,
I would take the "ason" to be "ito" as opposed to subjugated to his will.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Strength does not come from winning. Your
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   struggles develop your strength When you go
Author: Widen Your Tent      through hardship and decide not to surrender,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best
> practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should
> they daven? what else should they do?)?

Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day,
and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven
is at the beginning of that time range?
---------------------------
At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening with a minyan
KT
Joel
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On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:34:55PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Why did chazal consider davening at haneitz as preferable? What's best
> practice for someone who wakes up two hours before haneitz (when should
> they daven? what else should they do?)?

I think I addressed the last question in my reply: Tefillah between alos
and haneitz or between the 4th hour and noon are only okay in bedi'eved
or hefsed situations.

But I was confused about the first question:
>> Are you asking why AkhG set Shacharis during the first third of the day,
>> and thus from sunrise to noon? Or why chazal say the best time to daven
>> is at the beginning of that time range?

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 02:58:03AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> At the beginning and why so much so that many prefer that time to davening
> with a minyan

The Rambam (Hil' QS 1:11) states that the time for Shema by day is
supposed to be before haneitz so that one ends the last berakhah at
haneitz.

In contrast SA OC 58:1-2 calls davening at haneitz is min hamuchar.
Weaker than the Rambam saying it's the mitzvah, and everything else
is also yotzei.

Biur Halakhah s"q 3 says that if your norm is to daven kesiqin it outranks
minyan and shema with tefillin. (The latter from Berakhos 22, mishnah.)

Aside from the Rambam phrasing it as though Shema at any other time is
suboptimal, and semichas ge'ulah letefilah means Shemoneh Estrei would
be at alos exactly, there is also zerizim maqdimin. But I think it takes
cheshash for shitas haRambam is the reason for preference over minyan.

The AhS (s' 1-5) has a long discussion of whether being yotzei Shema
before haneitz is the usual law for daytime mitzvos or special to Shema
(Rambam).

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The mind is a wonderful organ
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   for justifying decisions
Author: Widen Your Tent      the heart already reached.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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