Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 95

Sun, 15 Dec 2019

• 1. Fish and Meat eating (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: Fish and Meat eating (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Fish and Meat eating (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Fish and Meat eating (Rich, Joel)

I?m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We?re looking into the
question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o?c states that his
father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish.
??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???, ?????, ????? ????? ???? ???
??"? ???"? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????
In y?d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together.
??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???
????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????
The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef
??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???
? ??"? ????? ?????? ??? ?"? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????
???????. ??? ?? (??' ?? ??.) ??? ??? ??"? ?"? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????
????? ??? ??"? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???????? ???? ???? ????? (????? ??:) ????
?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???
????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???. ????? ??"? ??????? ????
????. ????? ???: ???? ???. ????:
The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since
this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got
extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers
to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn?t mention it)
[X]

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Tradition magazine published a symposium -"Rupture and Reconstruction
Reconsidered" (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik's
article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What
follows is my quick summary of the responses.
    Me- kach mkublani mbeit imat avi - "the tide goes in, the tide
    goes out"

N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid
core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should
come through text interpretation.
    Me- it's all about the demographics

G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There
have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be
aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could
of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should
be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual
practice, it's all micro-halacha 24/7. Women's education is driven by
a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem
    Me- Interesting see N. Barash - where she said this was not her
    original drive

A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its
own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick
dissemination of podcast leniencies
    Me- there's a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic
    issues

A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and
text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize
that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we're seeing with
women's issues.)

E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of
larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each
loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example.
    Me- reading introductions is a great idea in general

E.Goldberg. There's been a disturbing trend of one word answers from
poskim which doesn't allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result
but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions
seem equally authentic. The center must hold!
    Me- troop levels seem dangerously low

M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more
Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism
has disappeared but he's not sold on the change in feeling the immanence
of divine presence.
    Me- focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See
    H. Zelcer below

L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which
allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate

D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted
in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith.
    Me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we
    financially support it?

E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah
has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing
emotional commitment.
    Me- see comment above

Y. Pfeffer. There hasn't been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/
Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that's
all changing now as part of a dynamic progression.
    Me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet

S. Ridner. Women's mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based
and in the end there may not be much change.
    Me- or maybe yes

C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a "new" mimetic
tradition.
    Me- amen. As in "instant classic"
Really now Israel defines our Judaism.
    Me- amen and I'm coming home next week IY"H[as I write this]

R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there's a
disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas' world and ours. We are splitting
the right from social orthodoxy.
    Me- anecdotally seems all too accurate

C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine.
    Me- I hope that's true

H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik.
They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their
own business purposes. There's often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst
more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his
own personal rupture and reconstruction.
    Me- Ger vtoshav?

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 03:45:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together.
> [Tur YD 116]

... because it is "qasheh latzara'as".

And I think the tzara'as connection is key.

Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a
spiritual element.

> The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently)
> seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef
> [BY OC 173]

Pesachim 76b.

Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the
"davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as.

> The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since
> this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition
> got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo
> refers to ??"?-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it)

https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38

Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam
za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about
a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness
and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing
with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going
from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M.

So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed
his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there
being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam
(Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's
warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could
well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt
that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   "I am thought about, therefore I am -
Author: Widen Your Tent      my existence depends upon the thought of a
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. 
> Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the 
> prohibition got extended so far 

It's a simple kal vachomer.  If simply baking them in the same oven can 
cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven.
> Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the
> prohibition got extended so far

It's a simple kal vachomer.  If simply baking them in the same oven can
cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together.
-------------------------
I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the danger
Kt
Joel rich
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