Volume 37: Number 80
Thu, 10 Oct 2019
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:47:59 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Jewish burial practice
Any historical/halachic data on when and why Jewish burial practice changed
from allowing the body to decay and then "burying" the bones, to the
current practice?
GT
Joel Rich
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Message: 2
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:51:42 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] How Halakhah Changes
Excerpt Recent correspondence:
> Sholom u'vracha,
> I ran across an article that was fascinating to me in The Lehrhaus. It
> strikes me that both of you might enjoy it.....What was particularly
> fascinating to me in this article, was being able to contrast two
> different classes/types of halachic change both regarding Tisha B'Av
> practices. One class-type results in bright-lines being drawn, the other
> seems to morph into an accepted minhag/halachic change of sorts.
> How Halakhah Changes: From Nahem to the "Tisha be-Av Kumzitz"
[ At http://bit.ly/2M4FUnm -mb]
I think this article pretty much comports with my delicate dance theory
of Halacha. Change generally must be seen as organic rather than being
forced from the outside in order for it to be generally accepted. Once
the change expands to larger populations the rabbinic class has to decide
whether to go with the flow, encourage it or try to stem it. That decision
will often be made on a very meta-basis. I used to think that this was
completely an artifact due to our lack of a Sanhedrin but it's been so
long I'm really not sure. Perhaps that was the reason that each tribe
had its own Sanhedrin and perhaps there was not uniformity but rather
1000 flowers bloomed (excuse the Chinese allusion)
GT
Joel Rich
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:23:52 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Size of Canaanite Population
One of the things Bible Critics leap on is the idea that some 2-3 million
Jews were living in Egypt, and if they did, they should have had no problem
conquering Kenaan. As they see things, the population of these regions
were to low, that the incoming BY would have overwhelmed them by sheer
numbers.
This had led to some odd interepretations, like defining "elef" as
"clan" or "battle unit" (think "aluf"), and thus cutting off the numbers
of each sheivet at the hundred. Which then requires saying that later
editing changed the national totals to so that the number of alafim in
the national total reflects addition with carry from the me'os.
Well, now archeologists have reason to believe their whole scheme for
estimating the population in Kenaan was totally off. Here's a whole
6,000 person city that they're dating back to before Noach. By the
time the Kenaanim get to the scene....
See https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/archaeologists-bronze-age-new-york-city-israel
or numberous other links.
They really have to rethink their entire view of Bronze Age populations.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
http://www.aishdas.org/asp "I am thought about, therefore I am -
Author: Widen Your Tent my existence depends upon the thought of a
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch
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Message: 4
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:48:15 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas
From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov?
A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom Tov for fear
that these activities may lead to fashioning musical instruments. (Shulchan
Aruch OC 339:3) On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived the prohibition in order to
increase the honor of the Torah (Magen Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8
and 669:5). An alternative reason presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC
339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing and clapping are not forbidden because
they do not lead to fashioning a musical instrument.
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:48:15 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas
From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
> Q. Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas Torah, when these
> activities are prohibited on an ordinary Yom Tov?
> A. Chazal prohibited dancing and clapping on Shabbos and Yom
> Tov for fear that these activities may lead to fashioning musical
> instruments. (Shulchan Aruch OC 339:3)
Tosafos (Beitzah 30a) and the Ritva (Shabbos 148b) both say this extra
rider on musical instruments to also prohibit clapping hands, clapping
one's thigh or riqud (quoting the gemara Beitza) no longer applies.
Because musicians no longer know how to routinely fix their instruments
if they break while playing.
It is one thing to continue the core gezeira (prohibiting the use of
musical instruments) after the motivation ceased to be true. It's another
to continue these peripheral extensions.
> On Simchas Torah, Chazal waived
> the prohibition in order to increase the honor of the Torah (Magen
> Avraham 339:1; Mishnah Berurah 339:8 and 669:5). An alternative reason
> presented by Aruch HaShulchan (OC 339:8,9) is that our mode of dancing
> and clapping are not forbidden because they do not lead to fashioning
> a musical instrument.
And leshitasam, not some special waver for Simchas Torah.
Which is why the Rama, after saying "mutav sheyehu shogegim", i.e.
that it's assur but we can't stop it, so don't try, add a vyeish
omerim... and then quotes Tosafos's wording.
How can Chazal wave a din for the purposes of a holiday and its
customs that post-dates them? To Chazal, it's just Shemini Atzeres,
or the Yom Tov Sheini shel Goliyos of Shemini Atzeres.
That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod
haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites
"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a
waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah
would be equally exempt.
And the MB makes a point of telling you not to extend this heter to
other simchos shel mitzvah, like nisu'in. Nor to extend it to instruments
themselves.
The AhS says that since we are not clapping or dancing in a manner that
requires musical instruments this isn't the clapping or dancing included
in the issur. After all, why would anyone prohibit clapping because you
may fix a musical instrument if they were talking about clapping of a
sort totally unrelated to playing instumwents? It is less like Tosafos's
heter, which is also based on "do not lead to fixing instruments", and
instead saying our activities aren't the ones the gezeira included in the
first place.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission
http://www.aishdas.org/asp on Earth is finished:
Author: Widen Your Tent if you're alive, it isn't.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Richard Bach
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Message: 6
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:27:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas
At 02:48 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote:
>That's not a quesiton on the MA or MB, the MA says "lekhavod
>haTorah mutar", citing the Mahariq. The MB is similar, but just cites
>"acharonim". He does say it's mussar on Simchas Torah, but it's not a
>waver specific to ST. Any chag when you're dancing lekhavod haTorah
>would be equally exempt.
ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted. I do not
think that this permission would apply to Yomim Tovim that are
D'oreisa. Thus, dancing on Shemini Atzeres in EY seems problematic
to me, since the Yom Tov there is D'oreisa. Indeed, it seems to me
that ST has no place in EY. Originally in EY they followed a 3 or 3
and half year cycle for reading the Torah, so there was originally
no completion of the Torah in EY each year as we have outside of EY.
For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's
sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah.
YL
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:58:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas
On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:27:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> ST is D'Rabbonon so IMO that is why dancing in permitted...
...
> For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer
> Toldos Chag Simchas Torah.
But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of
minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa.
Celebrating the siyum on the Torah on Shemini Atzeres dates back to the
9th to 12th history, depending on a machloqes among historians.
Recall that until the geonic period, Israel and nearby communities were
leining the Torah on a 3 year cycle, likely beginning and ending on
Shavuos. But even if any leings from Shemini Atzeres to Shemini Atzeres
three years later, there would only have been a siyum one year in 3.
There was no Jewish People wide siyum on the Torah for Simchas Torah to
be about until at least 400 years after Chazal.
In the 16th cent, ST meant walking around the bimah with the sifrei Torah.
Then, because you can't take a Torah out without reading it, a unique
nighttime reading.
Actually having music, dancing, clapping, etc... it's all comparatively
modern. Under the influence of the Mequbalim of Tzefat.
It would take serious ruach haqodesh for Chazal to create a loophole for
a practice that began over a millennium after chasimas hashas. (Aside
from it being minag, not din, anyway.)
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
Author: Widen Your Tent tasks as if they were great and noble.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Helen Keller
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Message: 8
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 15:59:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas
At 03:58 PM 10/10/2019, Micha Berger wrote:
> > For an excellent exposition on the development of ST see Ya'ari's sefer
> > Toldos Chag Simchas Torah.
>
>But ias your own source says, it is not miderabbanan. ST is a set of
>minhagim. And in Israel, it's on Shemini Atzeres deOraisa.
When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA
is D'Rabbonon.
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 16:18:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Why is it permitted to dance and clap on Simchas
On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 03:59:14PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> When I said that ST is D'Rabbonon I meant that the second day of SA is
> D'Rabbonon.
Which means you're okay with banning ST celebrations in Israel?
In any case, the argument in the sources I cited revolves around clapping
and dancing being a shevus -- the prohibition being on a rabbinic level
because of the act, not because of the date.
Which is why the Tosafos and the Ritva make their argument about Shabbos.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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