Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 75

Wed, 18 Sep 2019

• 1. p'sukim in R"H davenning (Sholom Simon)
• 2. Re: p'sukim in R"H davenning (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: daat (Akiva Miller)
• 4. definition of abezraihu (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 5. Re: daat (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: daat (Micha Berger)
• 7. halachic living will? (Rich, Joel)
• 8. tenet of belief (Rich, Joel)

I'm sure this is a very basic question . . . 

Why do the 10 p'sukim in each of the three parts of Musaf R"H davening
(malchus, zichronos, shofros) break down in the following order: 3 from
Torah, 3 from K'suvim, 3 from Nivi'im, 1 from Torah?  Specifically my
question is: in all three parts, why is K'suvim before Nevi'im? 

-- Sholom
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Why do the 10 p'sukim in each of the three parts of Musaf R"H davening
(malchus, zichronos, shofros) break down in the following order: 3 from
Torah, 3 from K'suvim, 3 from Nivi'im, 1 from Torah?  Specifically my
question is: in all three parts, why is K'suvim before Nevi'im?

=====================================

See here for r?ybs approach

https://www.etzion.org.il/en/musaf-prayer-rosh-hashana



kvct



joel rich




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R' Joel Rich asked:
> What is daat? When we say a cheresh, shoteh or katan doesn't have it,
> it seems like intellectual acuity. Some commentaries link daat to bechira
> (choice -- as in eitz hadaat tov v'ra). Is it possible to have intellect
> without choice or choice without intellect? 

Your last line seems to be a rhetorical question, asserting that it
is indeed possible to have intellect without choice or choice without
intellect, and then asking how that could be possible.

I suggest that perhaps you have already figured it out: No, it is not
possible. These people who lack daas therefore also lack bechira. (Or
perhaps they don't totally lack daas and bechira, but the amount they
have is less than the minimum shiur.) Once it has been established that
someone lacks bechira for whatever reason, it's obvious that they are
exempt from any responsibility for mitzvos.

Akiva Miller

Does anyone have a good definition for me of what makes something abezraihu
(of AZ, or murder, or G arayos)

As opposed to an isur which somewhat connected, but not yaraig v'al yaavor

is mixed dancing abezraihu?
assisting an abortion abezraihu?
Entering a church sanctuary?

Etc

Thanks,
Mordechai cohen 
mco...@touchlogic.com

On 11/9/19 4:09 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> What is daat? When we say a cheresh, shoteh or katan doesn?t have it, it 
> seems like intellectual acuity. Some commentaries link daat to bechira 
> (choice ? as in eitz hadaat tov v?ra). Is it possible to have intellect 
> without choice or choice without intellect?
> 

Daat is perception.   Chochma is the initial flash of inspiration, that 
is represented in cartoons by a light bulb.  You know that you have it, 
but you don't yet know what it is.  It's a point.  Binah is the 
expansion of that flash into an actual idea that can be understood. 
Daat is the application of the idea to choices; perceiving how it 
relates to the outside world, how it ought to affect ones feelings and 
therefore ones actions.  The decisions of Daat then flow down through 
the Metzar Hagaron to be expressed in the six middot, and their output 
is communicated to the outside world by Malchut.

Men are stronger in Chochma and Daat, women are stronger in Binah. They 
can take an idea and see all its implications, but tend to be weak at 
applying it to control their decision-making process.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 08:09:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> What is daat? When we say a cheresh, shoteh or katan doesn't have it,
> it seems like intellectual acuity...

If that were so, it wouldn't include a cheireish. A cheiresh's problem
is educability. Getting the facts, rather than the ability to use them.
Which is why today's deaf mute is not considered having the din of
a cheireish.

So it would seem that a lack of daas could mean a free-will issue, like a
shoteh who has compulsions, or is ordered about by internal voices. But
it doesn't have to be. It could be someone whose bechirah is intact but
simply can't make an informed decision.

A qatan could theoretically be both -- lacking the emotional maturity to
overcome desire in as many cases as a gadol could. But ALSO lacking the
knowledge and experience to make informed choices, even if they could.


Similarly, you mention the eitz hadaas tov vara. Adam had the power
of bechirah, he "simply" had no internal pull toward tov or ra. He
therefore naturally sought tov, because that's the cold logical choice,
and ra had to be presented by a nachash, an external yeitzer hara.

See the Moreh 1:2, who emphasizes that before the cheit, Adam's choices
were between emes vasheqer. And Nefesh haChaim (1:6, fn) which says that
what the cheit did was internalize the yeitzer hara. This combination
of the two into a single picture is REED's (vol II, pg 138)

So, the eitz hadaas didn't so much cause bechirah but give it something
new to work on.

--


Sephiros sense.

Also, Daas in the 10 Sephiros sense probably has multiple meanings,
depending on how the particular school of Qabbalah relates to Keser and
how the source of Chokhmah and Binah (Keser) is sometimes interchanged
with their synthesis, their product (Daas).

And then there is Daas as in De'iah Binah uHaskeil.

So I am not sure these explorations will help produce the halachic meaning.


But I will share my thoughts anyway.

If Da'as is both the product of insight and reason and their cause,
it would seem to have to do something with learning how to think.

Which would mean that someone who lacks knowledge or someoen who lacks
clear reason couldn't reach daas.

It also would explain daatan qalos vs binah yeseirah -- if you do not get
as engrained with a particular way to think, you'll be a more creative
and wide-ranging thinker. But it will be harder to pick up the skills for
pesaq, since that's about locking in to a particular style of reasoning.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Problems are not stop signs,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   they are guidelines.
Author: Widen Your Tent              - Robert H. Schuller
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Is there an Israeli (law) equivalent to the Agudah/RCA halachic living will?
Kvct
Joel rich

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From someone's post elsewhere:
A tenet of our belief is that the Torah is unchanging; the oft-repeated
adage, 'we do not adapt the Torah to the times, we adapt the times to the
Torah' is our creed.
My reply:
Perhaps your next piece might be on how this tenet is being reflected in an
age of rampant materialism and focus on the rights of the individual (vs.
communal obligation)
Kvct
Joel rich

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