Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 68

Thu, 22 Aug 2019

• 1. Chazal accept medicinal treatments (Rich, Joel)
• 2. A Poseik's poseik? (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: Torah remez ? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Chazal accept medicinal treatments (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Chazal accept medicinal treatments (Micha Berger)
• 6. 15 Av (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: 15 Av (Micha Berger)
• 8. Brisk Halachic Process (was: Showering During the 9 Days) (Micha Berger)

Clarke's first law states that any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic. If so, how did Chazal accept any medicinal
treatments from non-halachic sources (since no one knew how these
treatments actually worked [and in the end they didn't])?
KT
Joel Rich

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A prominent MO pulpit Rabbi was talking about psak and going to more than
one poseik . He stated that going to more than one is not a problem as long
as they have similar approaches. In particular he mentioned Rabbi H
Schachter, Rabbi M Willig and Rabbi Asher Weiss. I was a bit surprised
because I don't believe that their psak approaches are particularly similar
I've always felt that going to more than one poseik (even in different
areas of psak) raises the likelihood that one will be accepting positions
which are based on a higher order tartei dsatrei (Internal inconsistencies
that even the poseik may not be consciously aware of). I would think this
would be especially true when the methodologies of psak of the poskim are
much different. It's certainly been my impression that Rabbi Weiss's
approach is much different in than Rabbi Schachter (e.g. he doesn't
generally hold from tzvei dinim , Is a lot more likely to go with libi omer
li. Etc.) Nothing wrong with any of these approaches they just seem to be
very different and while even poskim with very similar approaches may come
to different conclusions it just seems to me that the same way one would
settle on a general life approach in a poseik one might think to strive for
consistency in psak approach. I guess the original statement would be more
in line with what I call "the franchise" the
 ory (adapted from my consulting life) - Once you earn the trust of your
 peers (and more so your clients) you get to do a lot of what you want
 based on the past history/trust rather than on the individual analysis.
Of course none of my musings are lmaaseh
KT
Joel Rich

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On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 08:49:01AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Moed Katan 5a - "Amar R'Shimon ben Pazi," Remez l'tzion kvarot min
> hatorah, Talmud Lomar" and then responds with a quote from Yechezkel.

It would be the only such example in shas as far as I could find.

I would therefore assume that's exactly that Rabina is talking to R
Ashi about. And so the answe to the question doesn't finally come until
"gemara gemiri lah, ve'asa Yechezqeil... R' Avohu amar: "vetamei tamei
yiqra'..."

SO I would read the gemara as following up wiht exactly your question,
and then eventually getting to either:
- TSBP until Yechezqeil, or
- Vayiqra 13:48


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 We are great, and our foibles are great,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and therefore our troubles are great --
Author: Widen Your Tent      but our consolations will also be great.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook

> 
> Chazal didn't have double-blind testing or a field of statistics. Instead,
> something that worked three times was considered effective 

://::::::::://////:
So 3 out of 10 (100....) is all good?
Kt
Joel rich
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On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 09:08:26PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Clarke's first law states that any sufficiently advanced technology
> is indistinguishable from magic. If so, how did Chazal accept any
> medicinal treatments from non-halachic sources (since no one knew how
> these treatments actually worked [and in the end they didn't])?

Lehefekh...

Chazal didn't have double-blind testing or a field of statistics. Instead,
something that worked three times was considered effective.

And anything effective is exempt from derekh Emori. (Also, from muqtza.)
See Shabbos 67a, starting at the mishnah. For that matter, Abayei and Rava
seem to exempt anything fone for refu'ah, even without a chazah that it
works. Kemie'os, objects and lekhchishah are included in the discussion.

So long as it's not real AZ. Top of amud beis, R Yehudah's ban on
using the idioms "gad gaddi" and "danu danei".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You will never "find" time for anything.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   If you want time, you must make it.
Author: Widen Your Tent                        - Charles Buxton
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

.
I wrote: <<< The sequence of events seems to be: ... on Rosh Chodesh,
Aharon died and the clouds left. ... [On Tisha B'Av] morning they figured
the calculations must have been in error. Ditto for several more days,
until Tu b'Av, ... >>>

If the above is correct, then it turns out that this joyful surprise (that
the Tisha B'Av death had ended) occurred right in the middle of the
Shloshim for Aharon Hakohen. This doesn't prove or disprove anything, but I
thought that the mix of simcha and mourning was interesting.

Akiva Miller
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On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 10:50:29PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> If the above is correct, then it turns out that this joyful surprise (that
> the Tisha B'Av death had ended) occurred right in the middle of the
> Shloshim for Aharon Hakohen. This doesn't prove or disprove anything, but I
> thought that the mix of simcha and mourning was interesting.

Well, they couldn't not be happy. Knowing you're not going to die is
going to be like that. Even for a generation raised on mon and living
in G-d-provided sukkos.

But perhaps this advocates for a mixed read of the reasons for 15 beAv.
That 15 beAv didn't become a special day ledoros (or at least for as long
as Megillas Taanis, and revived pretty recently) over any one of the
events Chazal give, but when it was realized how many positive events
happened on the same day.

In which case, there was no minor holiday of Tu beAv that year yet.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 One who kills his inclination is as though he
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
Author: Widen Your Tent      you must know where to slaughter and what
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 10:04:17PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Iiuc the Rav did Not disagree about hashkafa being important but rather
> felt that it was derived from halacha. R Rosensweig from RIETS usually
> gives an introduction to each tractate that he teaches at outlining the
> underlying philosophical underpinnings that carry through or perhaps
> stem from Halacha

In my most recent blog post, I discuss the difference between Brisk
and Telz on how halakhah related to hashkafah. My usual quick example
(the one I used in Widen Your Tent):
To R' Chaim, the laws of baalus define the concept of property. As
RJR attributed to RYBS, above. To R' Shimon (begining chapters of
Shaarei Yosher sha'ar 5), property is a natural concept which halakhah
then mediates.

The other issue I raised was whether pesaq is a fact finding mission
or a legal interpretation one. I attributed the former position to
Brisk, which is why they have Brisker chumeros and cheshash for
the latter.

From those bases, I went through how RHS and I ended up with such different
ways of tying tzitzis.

1- I take aggadita into account when choosing among shitos that have
no resolving pesaq. As precedent, I use the AhS's account of Rashi vs
Rabbeinu Tam tefillin in the period of the rishonim, when both were worn,
vs after the publication of the Zohar, which endorsed Rashi's shitah on
aggadic grounds.

2- To RHS, both the dinim for lavan and for tekheiles are equailly real,
even if we don't have pesaqim for tekheiles. For R Shimon or the AhS
(or nearly any acharon or poseiq I could think of who wasn't influenced
by Brisk), the dinim for lavan are more real, and one ought not be machmir
in tekheiles at the expense of the accepted pesaqim in lavan.

If you still want to read the post, it's currently named "Bottom to Top"
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/bottom-to-top>. I was thinking of the
bottom line practice of tzitzis vs the top-layer halachic meta-meta-issues.
But the post ought be renamed, and likely will be.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
Author: Widen Your Tent      happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Dale Carnegie


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