Volume 37: Number 64
Mon, 12 Aug 2019
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 15:50:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Showering During the 9 Days
On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 06:31:06PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> See page 198 of nefesh harav where r'ybs quoties r'ms that the minhag
> not to shower during the 9 days was taken from not showering during
> shloshim. Since people now shower during shloshim there's no reason
> not to shower during the 9 days
I heard RYBS explained it two ways. And barring an intended Brisker
chaqira in the subtle difference, I would assume they're simply different
phrasings:
1- If you shower everyday, then it isn't that showering is a luxury
unbefitting aveilus. And there is precedent for this among early pesaqim,
eg the AhS, allowing showering before Shabbos by those who shower before
every Shabbos.
2- Someone who showers everyday may shower during the 9 Days because he
is an istinis.
RYBS's position about the 9 days paralleling sheloshim appears to be
his own chiddush, and part of the whole "halachic man" mindset, his
approach to minhagim, to "ceremony" in halakhah, or this story found in
"Women's Prayer Services - Theory and Practice I" (Tradition, 32:2,
p. 41 by Rabbis Aryeh and Dov Frimer):
[T]he following story, related to us by R. Yehuda Kelemer, former
Rabbi of the Young Israel of Brookline, Massachusetts. During the
mid-1970's, one of R. Kelemer's woman congregants at the Young
Israel of Brookline was interested in wearing a tallit and tsitsit
during the prayer services. After R. Kelemer had expressed to her
his hesitations about the matter, she approached R. Soloveitchik --
who lived in Brookline -- on the matter. The Rav explained that
in light of the novelty of the action, it needed to be adopted
gradually. Accordingly, he suggested that she first try wearing a
tallit without tsitsit (which is, of course, allowed for women.) The
Rav asked the woman to return to him after three months, at which
time they would discuss the matter further. When the two met once
again, she described to R. Soloveitchik the magnificent nature of
her religious experience in wearing the tallit. The Rav pointed
out to the woman that wearing a tallit without tsitsit lacked any
halakhically authentic element of mitsvah. It was obvious, therefore,
that what generated her sense of "religious high" was not an enhanced
kiyyum hamitsvah, but something else. Under such circumstances,
the Rav maintained, wearing a tallit was an inappropriate use of
the mitsvah. Consequently, the Rav forbade the woman from wearing
a tallit with tsitsit.
In a talk (in Yiddish) to the YU Rabbinic Alumni in May 1955 (see The
Rav, The World of R Joseph B Soloveitchik vol II pg 54), he gave his
opinion of kiruv based on "ceremony":
... There is much foolishness and narrishkeit in some of these
publications. For instance, a recent booklet on the Sabbath stressed
the importance of a white tablecloth. A woman recently told me that
the Sabbath is wonderful, and that it enhances her spiritual joy when
she places a snow-white tablecloth on her table. Such pamphlets also
speak about a sparkling candelabra. Is this true Judaism? You cannot
imbue real and basic Judaism by utilizing cheap sentimentalism and
stressing empty ceremonies...
A year later, when speaking to the RCA, the Rav returns to the "white
tablecloth" when discussing R' Samson Raphael Hirsch's emphasis on
"ceremony" and how that is one of the ways the Hirschian approach differs
from YU's. See Insights of Rabbi Joseph B Soloveitchik, pg 162.)
The Rav's negative attitude toward finding meaning in an shawl without
tzitzis is akin to his devaluing the aesthetics and peace of mind many
people get from a beautiful Shabbos table.
This idea that in true Judaism, meaning is only found in halakhah goes as
far as to shape the Rav's rulings about how to practice mourning during
these three weeks. The Rav was certain that Chazal and the rishonim could
not possibly have established practices for the Three Weeks that did
not follow the forms of aveilus for the death of a family member. And
therefore rules that only the ruiles of the 12 month period of aveilus
apply to the Tammuz portion of the Three Weeks, whereas the 9 Days have
the practices of sheloshim.
The point in common is that to the Rav's worldview, there couldn't
be a minhag of mourning that didn't have the halachically established
structure for aveilus. Such a practice would be "ceremony".
Even within the community of the Rav's students, efforts to have more
"ceremony" in our lives are increasingly common. Whether Carlebach
minyanim Friday night or on Rosh Chodsh (the YU of today hosts both)
or study of Chassidic works like Nesivos Shalom or the works of the
Piacezna. (Halevai there were more opportunities to find and experience
Litvisher spirituality, ie Mussar, but that's a different topic.)
The Rav's attitude comes straight from Brisker ideal as expressed in
Halakhic Man, that halakhah is the sole bridge between our creative
selves and our thirst to relate to G-d. But I believe that as the world
transitions from Modernism to Post-Modernism, it speaks to fewer and
fewer of those of us who live in that world -- even fewer of us that
are resisting that world's excesses.
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 17:03:24 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Showering During the 9 Days
On 8/8/19 2:31 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> See page 198 of nefesh harav where r'ybs quoties r'ms that the minhag
> not to shower during the 9 days was taken from not showering during
> shloshim. Since people now shower during shloshim there's no reason
> not to shower during the 9 days
But what is the makor for "people now shower during shloshim"?
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 3
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 21:33:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Showering During the 9 Days
Since people now shower during shloshim there's no reason
not to shower during the 9 days
But what is the makor for "people now shower during shloshim"?
--
Puk chazi apparently. My guess would be changing cultural standards Which
always leads me back to the question of how and when they?re reflected. I
think it?s not a simple algorithm.
On a similar note if we understand that washing clothes is not allowed
because of the hesech hadaat issue, it would seem that should have changed
with the common use of automatic washing machines.
Kt
Joel rich
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 10:58:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Not wearing tefillin shel yad protector
On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 09:05:51PM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote:
> R' Micha Berger quoted the Aruch Hashulchan:
> At the end of the se'if, in kesav Rashi parenthesis, RYME writes:
>> [Yeish she'ein mesirin hatiq shel yad meihatefilin gam be'eis tefillah,
>> ve'ein nakhon la'asos kein.]
> Double negatives drive me crazy!!!
But in Tanakh and Rabbinic Hebrew they are common.
I think the problem you have is more caused by the imprecision of "kein".
It could refer to "yeish shei'ein mesirin..." or "mesirin hatiq".
The comment is in a parenthetic code to a se'if about how tzipui with
gold or the leather of a non-kosher species would invalidate one's
tefillin.
https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.32.88
IOW, the discussion is motive to UNcover tefillin.
I understood RYME as saying it is improper to leave the paper boxes
-- or today's plastic one -- on, but not a pesul like if it were
a more permanent tzipui.
I never heard of people being maqpid to remove the cover of the shel
yad, so I shared with RGD and the tzibbur to see if anyone had.
Or if I misunderstood what kind of tiq he's talking about.
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 19:46:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Showering During the 9 Days
On 8/8/19 5:33 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>>> ?Since people now shower during shloshim there's no reason
>>> not to shower during the 9 days
>> But what is the makor for "people now shower during shloshim"?
> Puk chazi apparently.
But is it? Has anyone done any kind of survey? How would one even begin
to go about finding out what people do during shloshim, and why. And
surely it varies from community to community, so how can one say what
"people" do without specifying which people?
As a datum: When I asked a L rov about showering during shloshim, he
wouldn't give a direct answer, but instead asked "What do you do during
the 9 days?" And when I replied that I do shower then, he said "Whatever
heter you use during the nine days will be just as valid now". But he
avoided paskening on *either* case.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 19:40:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Not wearing tefillin shel yad protector
See _Ashkavta Derebbi_, by Rabbi MD Rivkin, pages 35 and 38-39
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3404&;pgnum=57
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3404&;pgnum=60
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3404&;pgnum=61
On covering the shel yad with the sleeve, see pages 32 and 35-38
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 7
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 08:26:29 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Showering During the 9 Days
On 8/8/19 5:33 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>>> Since people now shower during shloshim there's no reason
>>> not to shower during the 9 days
>> But what is the makor for "people now shower during shloshim"?
> Puk chazi apparently.
But is it? Has anyone done any kind of survey?
===========================================
I've often pointed out that halachists seem to have a feel for this (nice way of saying they don't embrace survey methodologies)
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 8
From: <allan.en...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:39:40 +0100
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Showering During the 9 Days
On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 at 20:52, Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> The point in common is that to the Rav's worldview, there couldn't
> be a minhag of mourning that didn't have the halachically established
> structure for aveilus. Such a practice would be "ceremony".
>
So where, in the Rav's structure, does the minhag of refraining from meat
and wine in the Nine Days fit in, considering that it appears only in
aveilus for an onein, and not in shiva, sheloshim etc? Furthermore, some
specifically recommend drinking wine during the shiva.
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 13:58:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hava amina / mahu d'teima / salka datach amina
On Fri, Aug 02, 2019 at 03:14:57PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> Is there a difference between hava amina, mahu d'teima, and salka datach
> amina?
I found https://daf-yomi.com/DYItemDetails.aspx?itemId=9708 which discusses
the first two.
Halikhos Olam (R Yeshua b Yosef haLevi, Algeria 1490, subtitled "uMavo
leTalmud") notes that a mahu deteima is somtimes proven dachuq, but not
necessarily dismissed. Whereas a hava amina is never preserved.
The author of the web page, R Yoseif Shimshi (author of GemarOr -- sounds
like guide to learning Shas) wants to suggest his own chiddush:
Mahu detaima is used in response to trying to establish an uqimta
Hava amina is used at the top of the discussion, trying to get what the
tanna's chiddush is (what he's trying to rule out)
Which then leads him to explain why sometimes "tzerikhei" and sometimes
"hava amina", if both are explaining why something a tanna said is a
chiddush. That's at
https://daf-yomi.com/DYItemDetails.aspx?itemId=35000
But I think the difference is obvious -- as RYS notes, tzerikhei is
almost (?) always a pair of quotes that seem to make the same point.
Going back to what you actually asked, RYS discusses salqa da'atakh
at https://daf-yomi.com/DYItemDetails.aspx?itemId=14026
(qa salqa da'atakh, i salqa da'atakh and salqa da'atakh amina).
Where he says that the Shelah (Kelalei haTalmud #13) implies that
SDA is used to establish the line of reasoning of the final halakhah.
That's a huge difference in meaning, if SDA flags that the contrary
possibility is the gemara's pesaq!
He closes citing a journal, Sinai #99, saying that:
- i salqa da'atakh raises a legal issue
- salqa de'atakh amina rasies a language issue, a potential
misunderstanding of the statement.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
http://www.aishdas.org/asp suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
Author: Widen Your Tent -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
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