Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 61

Fri, 02 Aug 2019

• 1. Re: Eitzah Sheena Hogenet (Micha Berger)
• 2. Removing Ayin Horah Remotely from Yerusholayim (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Re: Removing Ayin Horah Remotely from Yerusholayim (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Eitzah Sheena Hogenet (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Removing Ayin Horah Remotely from Yerusholayim (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Removing Ayin Horah Remotely from Yerusholayim (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 7. Re: Removing Ayin Horah Remotely from Yerusholayim (Marty Bluke)
• 8. Re: Removing Ayin Horah Remotely from Yerusholayim (Micha Berger)
• 9. Ashkenaz and Minhag Eretz Yisrael (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 09:06:53PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Vayikra 25:17 states, "V'lo tonu ish et amito" ("And you shall not wrong
: one man his fellow Jew"). Rashi comments that this includes onaat dvarim,
: which includes giving inappropriate advice (Eitzah Sheena Hogenet)...

... to the benefit of the yo'eitz. Which is why the pasuq continues
"veyareisa meiElokekha, ki ani H' Elokeikhem" -- Someone Knows your
motives.

Which makes sense, given how ona'as mamon is also about taking advantage
of the other for one's own benefit.

So I think Rashi himself provides a chiluq. Onaas devarim is to help
oneself, whereas lifnei iveir is to harm the advised.

Not that that chiluq would help with hasraah, since the eidim aren't
presumably mindreaders. I guess if the yo'eitz tells a third party what
he's doing and why? (Eg When making fun of the rube.)

But, is there an onesh for there to give hasraah for? Aside frm the
BALM nature of either issur, they can be done with diffur alone --
lav she'ein bo maaseh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 For a mitzvah is a lamp,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   And the Torah, its light.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      - based on Mishlei 6:2
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/promotions/1767439/removing-ayin-horah-remotely-from-yerusholayim-3.html

What have we come to? Is this what we believe in, magic and superstition?
Is this really al pi torah?
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On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:32:11PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/promotions/1767439/removing-ayin-horah-remotely-from-yerusholayim-3.html
: 
: What have we come to? Is this what we believe in, magic and superstition?
: Is this really al pi torah?

It seems that molybdomancy (from the Greek molybdos, meaning: lead)
has clear and well established precedent before its earliest document
use among Jews.

It traveled from Ancient Greece to Germany (as well as other Dutch
countries) and also took root in Tukey. You can by Bliegiessen kits in
Germany today. (Although generally they use tin, not lead, after the
gov't clamped down on a practice that too ofen led to lead poisoning.)
The word isn't even uniquely Yiddish.

R Chaim Kanievsky reports (Segulos Rabbosseinu 338-336, source provided
by R Shelomo Avineir) that there is no mention in the mishnah, gemara,
rishonim, SA or Acharonim, "ein la'asos kein".

R Aharon Yuda Grossman (VeDarashta veChaqata shu"t #22
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=52054&;pgnum=177>
permits on the grounds that there is no derekh Emori when something is
being done for refu'ah (Shabbos 67a). Also relying heavily on the
Rashba (teshuvah 113)

To close with a witticism that reache me via R Eli Neuberger to RYGB,
R Aharon Feldman (RY NIRC) responded, "Klal Yisroel has gone from being
the Am Segula to the Am Segulos."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 It's never too late
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   to become the person
Author: Widen Your Tent      you might have been.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                    - George Eliot

I don't understand how there can be hasra'ah here at all.  If the 
witnesses see him giving a person what *they consider* to be bad advice, 
surely their duty is to give the person their own contrary advice.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On 31/7/19 3:32 pm, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/promotions/1767439/removing-ayin-horah-remotely-from-yerusholayim-3.html
> 
> What have we come to? Is this what we believe in, magic and 
> superstition? Is this really al pi torah?

That ayin hara is a real thing is definitely al pi torah.  One must 
twist oneself into pretzels in order to *avoid* believing that the Torah 
endorses a literal belief in ayin hara kipshuto.

Whether this person helps is surely an empirical question.  If he has a 
record, then something he is doing works.

How it works is another question.  It could be that it's simply a matter 
of suggestion and making the subject believe that he is no longer under 
the ayin hara, whereupon that confidence actually effects the help.

Or it could be (and this seems to me far more likely) that the help 
comes entirely from the hiddur mitzvah that he insists they adopt, and 
the rest is hocus-pocus whose purpose is to get them to adopt that hiddur.

Third, it could be that this person has been given a power mil'maalah as 
a means of providing him with parnassah, no different in principle from 
the power that was temporarily given to Ovadia's widow to pour an 
unlimited amount of oil from a jug.

Finally, our folk tradition has always included a belief not only in 
ayin horas but also in the ability to "whisper them away", and I see no 
reason why such an ability, if it exists, could not work remotely just 
as easily as it could in person.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Jul 31, 2019, 3:52 PM, at 3:52 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:32:11PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/promotions/1767439/removing-ayin-horah-remotely-from-yerusholayim-3.html

>> What have we come to? Is this what we believe in, magic and >superstition?  

>It seems that molybdomancy (from the Greek molybdos, meaning: lead)
>has clear and well established precedent before its earliest document
>use among Jews.
...

And yet recently R. Natan Slifkin on his blog was taken aback by the
apparent accuracy of the performance of a blei gissen by a friend of his.

KT,
YGB

Sent from BlueMail 

As one of the commenters on the blog pointed out this is classic cold
reading

?I?m surprised at your surprise. This is classic cold reading. He listed
many, many possibilities at various degrees of vagueness. You say the he
accurately predicted the shoulder and arm pain, but what he actually
predicted was different: problems [not pain] in the right shoulder area
[not the right shoulder] OR some completely unrelated and very common
condition (stress from a close family member). As it turns out, point
prevalence of shoulder pain is up to 26% with lifetime incidence of
shoulder pain is up to 70%
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03009740310004667

The part where you gave him a second chance was also not surprising. You
didn't object to the "issue with her head around about nose height" so he
guessed sore throat another common malady.

His self-description of his own successes are of no probative value
whatsoever.

A much better test would be to identify 5 people with a given ailment and 5
without and let him tell you which is which. Your test had not real success
criterion nor were there any control subjects.?


On Thursday, August 1, 2019, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <ygbechho...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> And yet recently R.  Natan Slifkin on his blog was taken aback by the
> apparent accuracy of the performance of a blei gissen by a friend of his.
>
> KT,
> YGB
>
>
>
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On Thu, Aug 01, 2019 at 09:57:01AM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
: As one of the commenters on the blog pointed out this is classic cold
: reading
...

We need to separate two concernts:
1- Does it work?
2- Is it Mutar?

I believe RNS would say it neither works nor is permissible. Whereas
RYGB would say is could well work, but would still be assur.

History says it's darkhei Emori. So the question could be how one
undestands the idea that something done for medince trumps derekh
Emori. Does the intent matir, or does it need to be established as
effective?

(And it culd well have been wrongsly "proven" effective, but lo nitnah
haTorah lemal'akhei hashareis.)

And why do the Chakhamim say (Shabbos 61a) prohibit carrying a foxes
tooth (even during the week)?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   "I am thought about, therefore I am -
Author: Widen Your Tent      my existence depends upon the thought of a
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

So, I noticed three cases in the AhS recently where Sepharadim end
up doing what's in Shas, and Ashkenazim follow (or followed and then
acharonim were machmir lekhol hadei'os) what one finds in the Yerushalmi.

New data for an old topic. So I'm CC-ing RRW.

1- 18:2-3
Rambam says tzitzs are needed during the day, regardless of the kind
of garment.
Rosh says tzitzis are required on a kesus yom, or a kesus yom valayalah,
but not a kesus laylah -- regardless of when it is worn.

The AhS explains the Rosh's position based on the Sifri and the Y-mi.

Sepharadim hold like the Rambam. The Rama ends up with the chumeros of
both -- don't wear a kesus yom during the night nor a kesus laylah
during the day without tzitzis, but in eihter case -- no berakhah
(safeiq berakhos lehaqeil).


2- 25:10

Menachos 36a: if you didn't talk between tefillin shel yad and shel rosh,
make one berakhah. (Which Rashi understands to mean on both. Tosafos say
it means if you speak, repeat "lehaniach tefillin" to make two berakhos
on the shel rosh.)

But in any case, the Yerushalmi and Tankhuma (Bo) have the two berakhos
as Ashkenazim say them.


3- 31:4 -- tefillin on ch"m

The AhS says it depends on whether the "os" of YT is
1- itzumo shel yom
2- issur melakhah
3- matzah or sukkah, respectively

And if it's the issur melakhah, which the AhS focuses on, whether the
issur melakhah on ch"m is deOraisa or deRabbanan. If it's deOraisa, then
wearing tefillin would be a statement of rejection / belittling the os
of ch"m. (Rashba teshuvah 690) But if the issur melakhah is derabbanan,
one should wear tefillin on ch"m. (Rosh)

Tosafos (Eiruvin 96a) say one is chayav, based on Y-mi MB ch. 3.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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