Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 58

Sat, 20 Jul 2019

• 1. Re: When did Moshe hit the rock? (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Gender Inequality in Jewish Weddings (Gil Student)
• 3. Re: Gender inequality in Jewish weddings (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Gender Inequality in Jewish Weddings (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: Gender Inequality in Jewish Weddings (Micha Berger)
• 6. minhagim (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: minhagim (Micha Berger)
• 8. Hanging Tzitzis to fulfil all opinions -- can it be done? (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: minhagim (Zev Sero)
• 10. Starbucks Redux (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 11. Q. I am learning to play a musical instrument. May I practice during the Three Weeks? (Prof. L. Levine)

On 15/7/19 8:34 pm, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> Somebody was musing last shabbos: Aharon died on 1 Av.? Do we know when 
> Miriam passed away?

Yes.  Nissan 10th.

 >  Do we know when Moshe hit the rock?

Probably the same day, but surely no later than the next day.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

See here for the view of the Maharshdam (16th century)
https://www.torahmusings.com/2018/05/are-women-better/

> But I have a related question: does anyone know the first Jewish source
> which claims like this blogger that women have more "natural spirituality"
> than men, and links this idea to "she`asani kirtzono"? RSRH is often quoted
> in this context, is there anybody earlier?
-- 
Gil Student

On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 06:03:32PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Beautiful article about how the roles of the kallah and chasan are not
: balanced.
: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/lord-or-lady-of-the-rings-should-an-orthodox-chuppah-be-more-gender-balanced/
: 
: 
: Here's a little spoiler from it:
: > That's why the bride plays a more active role in a traditional
: > Jewish wedding, while the groom is more passive.

But untrue. We Ashkenazim have a minhag to walk around the man 7 times.
Unlike the man's giving a kesuvah and declaration, not to mention her
entering /his/ chuppah, a regional minhag, and obviously not me'aqev.

And while we're talking about not me'aqev, who does the bedekin? Whether
the Ashkenazi version or the Sepharadi at-the-beginning-of-the aisle form,
in both cases it's the man who is active.

She picks up her finger to accept the ring. In a sense, it's demonstating
that the qiddushin is with her agreement. But it's part of *his* giving
the ring. Calling that her dominating the show is specious.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 08:42:05AM +0300, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
: But I have a related question: does anyone know the first Jewish source
: which claims like this blogger that women have more "natural spirituality"
: than men, and links this idea to "she`asani kirtzono"? RSRH is often
: quoted in this context, is there anybody earlier?

I found mention of this idea in Tanchuma Pinechas 7:1, and Bamidbar Rabba
21:10, on benos Tzelafchad. In both cases, the medrash notes a pattern:
the women won't give to the eigel, they are the first to give to the
Mishkan, and then benos Tzelfchad. "Hanashim goderos mah sheha'anashim
portzim." Specitically that women treasure spiritual things more than man,
more than calling them spiritual in general.

I think both medrashim predate the berakhah of she'asani kirtzono.

This point might be made by the Taz OC 46, who explains why the berakhah
was coined as follows: even in the man's berakhah [shelo asani ishah]
one sees the ma'alah of beri'as ha'ishah, but he doesn't need this
ma'alah. Therefore
    shapir chayeves hi levareikh al ma'alah shelah, KN"L nakhon.

(See there for the Taz's explanation of why "shelo asani Y" rather
than "she'asani X".)

But it is unclear whether he is saying that a woman has a ma'alah she must
thank G-d for that is above zero, or above man's. He does distinguish
this shelo asani ishah from the other two (goy and eved), which would
imply the latter. But I can't say it's muchrach.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You will never "find" time for anything.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   If you want time, you must make it.
Author: Widen Your Tent                        - Charles Buxton
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

>> Beautiful article about how the roles of the kallah and chasan are not
>> balanced.
>> https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/lord-or-lady-of-the-rings-should-an-orthodox-chuppah-be-more-gender-balanced/

> But I have a related question: does anyone know the first Jewish source
> which claims like this blogger that women have more "natural spirituality"
> than men, and links this idea to "she`asani kirtzono"? RSRH is often quoted
> in this context, is there anybody earlier?

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Rabbanit Batya Friedman is the senior rebbetzin of Hamsptead Suburb Garden
Synagogue in London, UK. She was born and raised in Brooklyn, NY. She
received her Bachelor of Science in Mathematics from Brooklyn College and
her MBA from the University of Alberta. She previously served the community
in Edmonton, AB Canada.

Anyone know what the title "senior rebbetzin" means in this shul in London?
-- 
Eli Turkel

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 02:19:39PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> Rabbanit Batya Friedman is the senior rebbetzin of Hamsptead Suburb Garden
:> Synagogue in London, UK...

: Anyone know what the title "senior rebbetzin" means in this shul in London?

Going to the shul's web site <https://hgss.org.uk/about-hgss/the-hgss-team>,
the picture of the first of the couples on the shul's team is labeled
"RABBI DANIEL & RABBANIT BATYA FRIEDMAN SENIOR RABBINIC COUPLE".
Click on the picture and you get their bios.

She is also the first rebbetzin (as you or I would call them) interviewed
in the Jewish Action article at
<https://jewishaction.com/religion/women/contemporary-rebbetzin-whats-like-rebbetzin-2017>.

So, she prefers "rabbanit" to rebbetzin (see the JA article), and the
couple are billed as teammates. But to answer the question I assume you
are asking, we're not talking about a woman in one of the new clergy
definitions (Maharat or Yoetzet).

In any case, the original article sounded to me more like kiruv fare
about white tablecloths, the kind RYBS was bothered by, than about the
later trend of accomodating feminist sensibilities in particular.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 What we do for ourselves dies with us.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   What we do for others and the world,
Author: Widen Your Tent      remains and is immortal.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Albert Pine

Minhag is one of those Humpty Dumpty words ([like Chazakah?] "When I use a
word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, 'It means just what I
choose it to mean-neither more or less."  "The question is," said Alice,
"whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question
is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be the master-that's all").
This point was driven home to me by a shiur (way too long to summarize
maareh mkomot available) I put together on the minhag of some women not to
do mlacha ("work" TBD-another Humpty Dumpty word?) on Rosh Chodesh.  The
Yerushalmi (Taanit 1:6) is the only Talmudic source specifically mentioning
this practice in a list of practices some of which are considered
"minhagim" and some not.  [I assumed the practical application is whether
one needs to be matir neder to stop].
In comparing this practice with mlacha on chol hamoed and during Chanukah candles, I reached the following tentative conclusions:
1. There is not always a strong mesorah for the source of minhagim.
2. Later, authorities use what data they can collect related to the
specific minhag to establish a narrative for the original practice (which
can include when and why) in order to determine current applications. I'm
not sure how much they take into account alternative possible narratives.
3. The narratives may also be impacted by a desire to cohere definitions
and/or rules amongst multiple tangentially related practices (e.g., mlacha,
candle lighting).
4. Halachic intuition plays a very strong role in determining "good" and
"not so good" minhagim. (Maybe of the nature of "what would I have
seen/done if I were a poseik back when the minhag was forming?")
Your Thoughts?
KT
Joel Rich

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On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:50:34AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Minhag is one of those Humpty Dumpty words ([like Chazakah?] ...

I don't think so, for either word.

The problem is that both refer to facts, not halachic categories. And the
same fact needn't be the same halakhah.

Minhag means that which is done. It could be commonly done because a particular
ruling became accepted in some region as the law (bet yosef chalaq) or
as beyond the law (glatt), by a given person ("I don't use community
eiruvin"), etc...

A chazaqah is a presumption. We presume when something would be true
by normal laws of nature or human nature (chazaqa disvara), or because
it's what we saw last time we check and we do not expect change (chazaqa
demei'iqara).

Sheiv Shemaatsa (6:22) proves that chazaqa disvara has no bearing in
a case of terei uterei. Specific case "ein adam chotei velo lo" does
not give one set of eidim more neemanus than the other. However,
a chazaqa demei'iqara would still stand even after eidim disagree
about whether the metzi'us changed.

But the word still means only one thing -- "held" to be true.


Similarly, gerama means causation. But the scope of what is gerama differ
when the topic is melakhah or when it's neziqin -- because neziqin splits
between gerama and garmi. Not because the word is wobbly.


The nafqa mina in this bit of linguistic theory is to be on the alert
when learning:

Brisker Lomdus spends a lot of effort on chalos sheim. So you pick up a
habit that words are labels and should be 1:1 with halachic categories.
And besides, we take buzzwords and apply the same buzzwords to disparate
sugyos -- cheftza vs gavra was borrowed from nedarim and shevu'os!

But it's not a consistently valid habit. Not everything is indeed intended
as a buzzword for a halachic category. Halakhah may not even be about
where to apply labels. Brisk might not be the only emes.

: 1. There is not always a strong mesorah for the source of minhagim.

Except according to Rambam Hil' Mamrim ch 2.2 "BD shegazeru gezeirah
or tiqenu atanah *vehinhigu minhag*", who seems to say minhagim are
established by beis din -- or perhaps posqim in general.

But I think most assume minhag, of all sorts, means grass roots.

Which is then verified post-facto:
: 2. Later, authorities use what data they can collect related to the
: specific minhag to establish a narrative for the original practice...

: 3. The narratives may also be impacted by a desire to cohere definitions
: and/or rules amongst multiple tangentially related practices (e.g.,
: mlacha, candle lighting).

Not sure how often this happens outside of... well, I hate to say it again,
but outside of Brisk.

RYBS rewrote much of the 3 weeks based on a theory that minhag must follow
halachic forms, and therefore each stage of aveilus in the Ashk minhagim
of 3 weeks must parallel a stage of aveilus derabbanan for a parent r"l.

But his pesaqim are idiosyncratic.

: 4. Halachic intuition plays a very strong role in determining "good"
: and "not so good" minhagim. (Maybe of the nature of "what would I have
: seen/done if I were a poseik back when the minhag was forming?")

Also in pesaq. I think "libi omer li" followed by seeing if the seikhel
can formally confirm what the heart said is a far more common pesaq
approach than we usually discuss. But we can argue how strong of a role
it plays in pesaq some other time.

As I have said here frequently, the difference between a moreh hora'ah
("Yoreh? Yoreh!", ie a poseiq) and stam a learned guy is shimush. (Sotah
22a) Why do you need the hands-on time with a rebbe, why isn't having
your head filled with the right facts enough? Because pesaq is an art,
requiring a feel for the subject. Or in your words, "developing an
intuition".

So I don't think #4 is a rule about minhag. It's a rule in hora'ah in
general.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 If you won't be better tomorrow
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   than you were today,
Author: Widen Your Tent      then what need do you have for tomorrow?
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            - Rebbe Nachman of Breslov

AhS OC 11:13-15 discusses where to thread the tzitzis strings through
the beged. Too far from the edge, and it's not being put al qanfei
bigdeihem. Too close to the edge, and the string is itself part of the
qanaf, and not "al". (Although the Tur says only the bottom edges have a
"too close", there is no too close to the side. But the SA s' 10 says
the shiur is in both directions.)

So, the maximum is 3 godlim, and the minimum is qesher agodel, which
the AhS (citing SA hArav, "haGR"Z") says is 2 godlim.

So, tzitzis has to be hung between 2 and 3 godlim from the edges of
the beged.

2 godlin is 4 cm (R C Naeh) to 5 cm (CI).
3 godlin would be 6 cm to 7.5cm

So the only way to be machmir would be hanging one's tzitzis between 5
and 6 cm from the edges. Closer to 5, since the Rambam's amma (and thus
all units of length) is shorter than RCN's.

I'm just saying, it's a very small window.

OTOH, you don't need to worry about a measure for that minimum 2 godlin
from the corner that is so large that it implies your tallis qatan isn't
chayav in tzitzis. Because then, if you're too close to the corner,
who cares -- the garment doesn't need kosher tzitzis anyway!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   this was a great wonder. But it is much more
Author: Widen Your Tent      wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    "mensch"!     -Rav Yisrael Salanter

See Bava Basra 2a, Tosfos dh "Bigvil", towards the end.  "But less than 
this, even if it is customary, this is an inferior custom.  This proves 
that there are customs on which one should not rely, even in cases where 
the Mishna says that 'it all follows the local custom'".


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

Back to the barricades!

The Star-K has launched a frontal assault on Starbucks.

https://www.star-k.org/articles/kosher-lists/1709/starbucks/

Nothing new has happened since the infamous cRc contretemps, which was 
addressed here. Anything that the Star-K claims is only muttar b'sh'as 
ha'dchak is really muttar l'chatchilah.

See 
https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=S#STARBUCKS%20COFFEE%20AND%20NOSEIN%20TAAM 
ff.

KT, GS,

YGB

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


A. One who is learning to play an instrument may practice during the Three
Weeks. It is permitted since this is a learning experience and thus is not
considered deriving pleasure from the music. Only listening to music which
evokes pleasure is prohibited during the Three Weeks (Moadei Yeshurun p.
151:18 citing Noam Vol. 11 p. 195). However, after Rosh Chodesh Av it is
preferable that this be done in a secluded place (ibid. 151:19 in the name
of Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l). There are those who prohibit practicing
after Rosh Chodesh Av (Shearim HaMetzuyanim B?Halacha 122:2) when the
mourning over the destruction of the Bais HaMikdash intensifies, since
there would normally not be a negative effect if one doesn?t practice for
nine days (Shu?t Betzeil HaChochma Vol. 6:61). Others prohibit practicing
only during the week in which Tisha B?Av falls (Shu?t Tzitz Eliezer Vol.
16:19) when the mourning intensifies even further.


In light of the statement "Only listening to music which evokes pleasure is
prohibited during the Three Weeks"  I wonder if I am allowed to listen to
most modern day music with gives me no pleasure during the 3 weeks.


YL
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