Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 57

Mon, 15 Jul 2019

• 1. Re: Darshening etim (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: A Day to Disconnect (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Hallel and Tfillin (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Mayim Acharonim, Chova? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: psak (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: what language did Bilaam speak? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Gender inequality in Jewish weddings (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Tefilas Haderech on a Cruise (Prof. L. Levine)
• 10. When did Moshe hit the rock? (Sholom Simon)
• 11. Re: Gender inequality in Jewish weddings (Simon Montagu)

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:06:30PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: The language of the story has his students questioning what will happen to
: all his previous drashot and his answering he'll get reward anyway. The
: answer doesn't seem to directly address the question. Perhaps they were
: asking whether the halacha will change or will other drashot be found
: to replace these?

Maybe this is proof to the Raaavad that derashos were found /after/
the din was known?

And even according to the Rambam, I don't see how Shimshon haAmsoni
could have confidence in any dinim he created with a derashah he wasn't
sure would work yet. The experiment only makes sense if he was looking
to source pre-existing dinim. So I would think the Rambam too might
consider this story an exception.

As further evidence, Hilkhos Mamrim gives a beis din, not an individual
to create laq through derashah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   if only because it offers us the opportunity of
Author: Widen Your Tent      self-fulfilling prophecy.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                            - Arthur C. Clarke

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:51:11PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R Micha Berger points out that many of the melachos involve truly creative
: acts that changed the physical world, and were ever-present in our agrarian
: society of millennia ago. If I'm understanding him correctly, he sees a
: disconnect between that sort of Shabbos rest, as opposed to the emphasis on
: disconnecting from electronic media, which are not very creative at all,
: and certainly not as creative as planting seeds or building houses.

I wasn't clear then. (Which is unsurprising, as I was trying the
impossible task of sharing something that felt like an epipheny.)

The "they" I am making the observation about aren't marketing Shabbos
as a break from being able to get pictures of our grandchildren from
another country, or writing a love note to your spouse or even sharing a
thiank you or making a shidduch. People want a day to disconnect because
of the stresses that online and phone life bring. So we're talking about
the stressful elements of on-line life; not on-line life in general.

I am not saying that being online is inherently uncreative. And certainly
not un-melakhah, if we're defining melakhah as "creative / constructive
work". Obviously, there are issues of havarah, koseif, derabbanans if
any music plays, maybe boneh if you plug anything in, makeh bepatish,
whatever...

I am saying the stuff that makes online life stressful or eat away
at the time we could be interacting on a more human level isn't the
creative stuff.

They're selling Shabbos as a break from killing time (or subotimally
using time) on line. From trying to keep up with too many news stories
and two many conversations with friends that will be forgotten in a day
anyway. Which is very different than a break from creating.

It is that particular aspect of on-line life, the very aspexct they're
using to market Shabbos, that I am contrasting with the more constructive
lifestyles of our ancestors.

But in any case, both require a day to take a step back and think about
where we'ee headed. A break from constructive work, so that we can make
sure we're best using our time to produce what HQBH would "Desire". Us,
to remember not to get lost in our favorite echo chamgers and dabate
fora altogether..

But they're very different usages of Shabbos. And the difference reflects
poorly on us.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 We look forward to the time
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   when the power to love
Author: Widen Your Tent      will replace the love of power.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF              - William Ewart Gladstone

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:05:12PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Why do we take off tfillin before [Mussaf] on Rosh Chodesh but before
: [Hallel] (for those who wear tfillin) on Chol Hamoed?

I would limit this question to Pesach.

Chol haMo'ed Sukkos is a real Hallel. If you want to compare, we need
to look at another example of "Half Hallel".

As for the incongruity of holding the lulav and esrog with tefillin on,
as first that seemed a good rationale. But then I recalled the Rambam,
who commended the hanhagah of holding 4 minim whenever possible throughout
the day -- including Shacharis!

But still, whole Halllel makes it different, it's a real chag element.
Half Hallel is fake and to me poses more of a question. (And in any case
is a closer comparison to RC.)

So, why is ChM *Pesach* different than RC?

Well, the Rama (OC 25:12) tells you to remove both before Mussaf.

It's the Magein Avraham (s"q 41) quoting another Rama - R' Menachem
Azaria miFano -- who says that the tzibbur should remove their tefillin
before Hallel. And the Chazan still after Hallel.

The first day of ChM Pesach is considered in some minhagim to be a
special case because leining includes veYaha ki Veyiakha. And so they
take their tefillin off after leining.

The Choq Ya'aqov (490:2) brings this rationale to explain the Rama's
position of *always* leaving them on until Mussaf. Extended by the
other days mishum lo pelug.

I don't have an answer I am happy with. Maybe because even a Half-Hallel
on Pesach is devar yom beyomo, and therefore more about the chag than
for RC. But as I said, I don't find that compelling.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Imagine waking up tomorrow
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   with only the things
Author: Widen Your Tent      we thanked Hashem for today!
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 10:00:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote:
: I would suggest that there is one small difference between bytes of data
: and fiat currency: Granted that fiat currency doesn't have any inherent
: value, but it at least a tangible object. Being a tangible object, even if
: it is a worthless one, it is still possible to pick it up physically and
: perform some sort of kinyan on.

: I'm not at all familiar with the halachos of performing kinyanim on
: worthless objects, but I'd presume that it's at least a mashehu better than
: the kinyanim one might perform on intangible bytes.

Well there is a well-discussed precedent -- shetaros. The paper and
ink of the shetar itself could well be worth less than shaveh perutah.
And yet for mamunus, the present value of a shetar chov is worth the
value to be paid times the probability of collecting. And for qiddushin,
the qiddushin are only chal if the paper and ink are shaveh perutah
(AhS CM 66:18).

Also, AhS se'if 9 says that paper currency has all the laws of kesef.
And if the note isn't publicly tradable, then a qinyan chalifin wouldn't
work because the ink and paper of the note aren't shaveh perutah. Seems
that the rationale is about tradability, not whether the note is backed
or fiat. Or maybe you need the hitztarfus -- only money that is a shetar
chov backed with something of value AND is publically tradable is kesef.


: Next topic...

: I would like to distinguish between two different kinds of credit card
: transactions. One is the ordinary purchase of an object in a store. I
: choose my object, somebody presses buttons and/or swipes a card, and the
: sale is complete, with a debit from my account and a credit on theirs. My
: ability to challenge the transaction later, and "claw my money back" is
: totally irrelevant, because even if I am successful, it would be a separate
: transaction....

Would it? My bank and the counterparty's bank undo the transaction at
my say-so, even if without their involvement. How could the retrieval
of money qualify as a second qinyan if they weren't maqneh?

Either you would have to argue that disputing a charge is assur, or
that it's a tenai or otherwise incorporated into the first qinyan.
No?



On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 08:07:31AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: After thinking about it and seeing R' Shternbuch (3:470 Teshuvos VHanagos)
: I think they are saying something else...
: However, I don't think anyone is saying that you can be mekayem the mitzva
: of byomo on a different day even if the worker agreed.

Thank you for the correction.

I'm still left confused, though, why the SA spends so much space telling
me how to avoid the issur in ways that still don't fulfill the chiyuv.
Bitul asei isn't as bad as breaking a lav, still... how could it not
even point out that the employer wouldn't be fulfilling their chiyuv?!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 01:39:06PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Please see https://ohr.edu/this week/insights into halacha/5285
...
:> Insights into Halacha
:> Mayim Acharonim, Chova?
:> by Rabbi Yehuda Spitz

: Mayim Acharonim has an interesting background, as it actually has
: two entirely different sources and rationales mandating it. The first,
: in Gemara Brachos[3], discussing the source for ritual handwashing,
: explains that one can not make a bracha with dirty hands, and cites
: the pasuk in Parshas Kedoshim[4] "V'hiskadeeshtem, V'heyisem Kedoshim",
: "And you shall sanctify yourselves, and be holy". The Gemara clarifies
: that "And you shall sanctify yourselves" refers to washing the hands
: before the meal, Mayim Rishonim, and "and be holy" refers to washing
: the hands after the meal, Mayim Acharonim. In other words, by washing
: our hands before making a bracha (in this case before Bentching), we
: are properly sanctifying ourselves.

: The second source, Gemara Chullin[5], on the other hand, refers to Mayim
: Acharonim as a "chova", an outright obligation. The Gemara elucidates that
: there is a certain type of salt in the world, called 'Melach S'domis',
...

Back when R Rich Wolpoe introduced me on-list to the work of Prof
Agus's position on the origins of Ashkenazi pesaq, nusach and minhag,
I noted something about mayim acharonim that could explain why Tosafos
and the SA end up with different positions.

According to Agus's theory (and further developed by Prof Ta-Shma and
others), the bulk of Ashkenaz originated in EY. Captives from EY ended up
in Rome and Provence, and when Charlamaign tried to moved the economic
center of the Holy Roman Empire north, the Jews converged on the land
we call Ashkenaz.

Sepharad, however, is more directly a chlid of Bavel and the Ge'onim.

This explains why there are often divergences in Ashk pesaq from the
conclusion in the Bavli -- but position that end up having support in
the Y-mi or medrashei halakhah. Because those sources more accurately
reflect the ancestors of Ashk.

(Which is why, as another quick example, when Ashk adopted Seder R Amram
Gaon, it preserved the Nusach EY LeDor vaDor for use after Qedusah,
and Shalom Rav for evenings.)

Well, turns out the Y-mi only mentions malach sedomis, and doesn't have
the comparison to mayim rishonim or the notion of qedushah.

So I found it unsurprising that Ashk, comng from a community that saw
mayim acharonim only in terms of avoiding blindness or other injury,
would minimize it once the risk is gone. However, in Seph, it's a matter
of qedushah too, so the SA's sources will be machmir even without melach
sedomis being served anymore.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The waste of time is the most extravagant
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   of all expense.
Author: Widen Your Tent                              -Theophrastus
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 11:19:15AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: When the gemara has an Ibaye d'lo Ifshita (unresolved question), is the
: practical halachic process going forward any different from one where
: it closes with teiku? If so, how?

According to the Yam shel Shelomo (BQ 2:5), teiqu closes the conversation.
If Chazal say it's unresolvable, we lack the authority to resolve the
question. And so the question must be resolved using rules of safeiq
deOraisa lehachmir, or derabbanan lehaqil. But an ibayei delo ishita
can be pasqened, a poseiq who feels he is bari can take sides.

The Shach quotes the YsS and disagrees, saying that teiqu is indeed
identical to IdLI. The Shach doesn't believe Chazal would never
close a question without having their own pesaq/im.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
Author: Widen Your Tent      'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 02:58:05PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: 1. What language did he converse with G-d and with  Balak?

Pictures, mental impages. Given that these are then wrapped by the
prophet's brain in the familiar, it must have seemed to Bil'am that
Hashem was speaking in Be'or's voice in the Aramaic of his youth.

I have nothing for 2 & 3 worth sharing. (Although if you take the
Rambam's daas yachid that the donkey speaking was part of the
nevu'ah, and not physical speech, the same answer would apply.)

...
: 4. What language did the angel speak to him since angels don't speak
: Aramaic.

Something I learned from your nephew, haR' Mordecai Kornfeld.

Tosafos (Shabbos 12b, "she'ein mal'akhei hashareis") ask about this
notion that they don't speak Aramaic? Mal'akhim can hear thoughts!
I am not clear if they are asking mima nafshakh, if they can hear
the thoughts they can understand the words used to explain them. Or
if T is saying that even if they didn't understand the Aramaic,
they would understand the tefillah by reading the thoughts directly.

(The Gra [on OC 101:11] brings a source for Tosafos's assumption
that mal'akhim can hear our thoughts.)

The Rosh (Berakhos 2:2) answers that mal'akhim act like they don't
understand a tefillah Aramaic because of the chutzpah of using an
almost-Hebrew rather than Hebrew itself.

Perhaps we could answer your queestion by saying that for Bil'am, the
decision not to use Hebrew wouldn't be considered chutzpah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When a king dies, his power ends,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
Author: Widen Your Tent      beginning.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                  - Soren Kierkegaard

Beautiful article about how the roles of the kallah and chasan are not
balanced.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/lord-or-lady-of-the-rings-should-an-orthodox-chuppah-be-more-gender-balanced/


Here's a little spoiler from it:

> That?s why the bride plays a more active role in a traditional
> Jewish wedding, while the groom is more passive.

No, there's no typos there. Nor even any sarcasm (though I suppose some
might call it a bit tongue-in-cheek).

Akiva Miller
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From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. I am going on a several-day cruise. When do I recite Tefilas Haderech?

A. One recites Tefilas Haderech on the first day when the boat leaves the
city. However, Minchas Shlomo (2:60:4) writes that it is questionable as to
whether one can recite Tefilas Haderech on the subsequent days, since the
boat continues traveling by day and by night. Ordinarily, during a trip
when one stops to go to sleep, this acts as a break, and one is required to
recite a new bracha in the morning. However, in this case the boat
continues to travel even while the passengers are sleeping. It is therefore
questionable whether sleeping on a boat constitutes an interruption. To
avoid this issue, one should incorporate Tefilas Haderech into Shmoneh
Esrei in the bracha of Shema Koleinu, which also ends with the bracha of
?Shomei?a tefilla.? If the boat were to dock in a port overnight, then one
could recite the bracha of Tefilas Haderech in the morning.

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Somebody was musing last shabbos: Aharon died on 1 Av.  Do we know when
Miriam passed away?  Do we know when Moshe hit the rock?
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On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 8:17 AM Akiva Miller via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Beautiful article about how the roles of the kallah and chasan are not
> balanced.
>
> https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/lord-or-lady-of-the-rings-should-an-orthodox-chuppah-be-more-gender-balanced/
>
>
>

One word: Apologetics

But I have a related question: does anyone know the first Jewish source
which claims like this blogger that women have more "natural spirituality"
than men, and links this idea to "she`asani kirtzono"? RSRH is often quoted
in this context, is there anybody earlier?
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