Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 51

Mon, 24 Jun 2019

• 1. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Rich, Joel)
• 2. How does early Shabbos work? How can I make kiddush if it is still Friday afternoon?H (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Marty Bluke)
• 9. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Micha Berger)

> The Torah is very makpid that we pay our workers on time and there is both a lav and an aseh. The din is that payment must be in cash

????-
While we?re on the topic is it clear that fiat money which certainly did not exist at matan Torah is considered cash?
Kt
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From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


A. There are three explanations why kiddush can be recited Friday afternoon, after accepting an early Shabbos:

  *   Shulchan Aruch (OC 261:2) writes that one is required to add from
  Friday onto Shabbos (mosifin michol al hakodesh). The Magen Avrohom	   
    (OC 261:9) maintains that this is a positive Torah commandment. The
  basis for this is as follows: The Torah (Vayikra 23:32) writes that one
  must begin Yom Kippur while it is still the ninth day of Tishrei. Since
  the pasuk refers to Yom Kippur as Shabbos (Shabbos Shabbaton), we infer
  that the requirement to begin early applies to every Shabbos as well.
  Because tosefos Shabbos (the added portion of Shabbos) has a Biblical
  status, it follows that one who accepts Shabbos early can recite kiddush
  during this time as well.



  *   The Mordechai disagrees with the above and holds that tosefos Shabbos
  is valid only on a Rabbinic level. If so, how can one recite kiddush,
  which is a Biblical requirement, during a period when Shabbos is only
  Rabbinic? The Magen Avrohom (267:1) addresses this question. We will not
  present the Magen Avrohom?s response because it requires explanation and
  commentary. We encourage you to explore the Magen Avrohom on your own.



  *   The Rambam (Hilchos Shabbos 29:11) writes that one may recite kiddush
  even if it is not yet Shabbos, because the mitzvah to remember Shabbos
  can be accomplished even a short time before Shabbos begins.



The above discussion relates to reciting kiddush Friday afternoon. With
respect to the Shabbos meal, the Magen Avrohom (267:1) quotes the Shelah
and the Maharal who maintain that, although one may begin the Shabbos seuda
on Friday afternoon, one should make sure to eat a kezayis (of bread) after
nightfall. The requirement to eat three seudos on Shabbos is derived from
the repetition of the word ?ha?yom? (today) three times in the Torah.
Accordingly, a kezayis of bread must be eaten on the actual day of Shabbos
and not during the tosefos (the addition).

The Magen Avrohom and Mishna Berura (267:5) write that it is preferable to follow the Shelah and Maharal, by eating a kezayis of challah after nightfall.

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On 24/6/19 7:37 am, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> While we?re on the topic is it clear that fiat money which certainly
> did not exist at matan Torah is considered cash?
Coins probably didn't exist at matan Torah either.  A shekel was a 
weight, and you would pay by putting bits of metal on a scale until you 
had enough.  And by Chazal's day coins had become a form of "fiat 
money", since they were often underweight but were expected to be 
accepted at their official weight.

At any rate I've seen a teshuva of the Chasam Sofer saying that "kesef" 
means whatever the local government has designated as currency, and 
circulates as such.  (If the government's currency doesn't circulate, 
this invalidates the government.)  So that a paper bill is not a shtar 
but kesef.

(We've discussed the history of coins before.  Secular archaeology says 
  they were invented in the late Bayit Rishon era.  But this seems to 
conflict with Chazal's understanding of "Vetzarta Hakesef".)

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

This likely should have remained on the "Credit cards and kinyonim"
subject line since although it's not the same topic, it's clearly a
continuation of the same discussion. Easier to find in the archive
if a discussion sticks to one subject line.

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 06:47:11AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
:                                                  ...
: what if I pay the worker electronically am I yotze the mitzva? ...

: Credit cards
: It seems clear to me that credit cards are not considered cash payments and
: you are not yotze the mitzva for 2 reasons:
: 1. You aren't actually paying. The way credit cards work is that you are
: telling the credit card company to pay the vendor and then they will
: collect from you. Since you are not paying you aren't mekayem the mitzva.

This is not a problem. You are allowed to send your employees to the
chenvani or shulchani to get paid. CM 229:10. As long as they receive
the money on time and agree to the arrangement.

: 2. The vendor doesn't get his money that day. Typically, a payment can
: take anywhere from 24 hours up to three days to process the payment.

Worse, because you can cancel payment during that time (and usually even
later tha money can be clawed back).

The problem I have is that the end of the siman talks about bal talin
only. I do not know if the following applies to the asei too. I would
guess yes, because that's a lot of ink to spend on saying the issur is
"only" the violation of an asei without explicitly pointing it out. But
as I said, that's a guess.

Here's the relevant bit, in s' 9.
If the sakhir knows that the baal habayis usually doesn't have money on
hand until market day, it's not bal talin if he doesn't get paid until
market day. The Rama adds that if the norm is to pay later, it's not
bal talin to pay later.

So I would think that if your vender has a card reader, there is
no problem paying by card.

: Electronic bank transfer
: Here there are a number of issues:
: 1. How does it work? Is it like a credit card where you tell the bank to
: send money and then the bank collects from you or is the bank simply your
: agent to transfer your money to the other person?

The problem is, as RJR implied, the same as fiat money, but more extreme.

When you wire money, money goes from one account to another. The fact
that said money is only represented by bits, rather than slips of paper,
may not change anything. Even if the bill was backed by gold or silver,
you could ask whether it counts as money; fiat currency more so. But
data... why would it be any different than fiat currency?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Man is capable of changing the world for the
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   better if possible, and of changing himself for
Author: Widen Your Tent      the better if necessary.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF          - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 10:58:06AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: (We've discussed the history of coins before.  Secular archaeology says they
: were invented in the late Bayit Rishon era.  But this seems to conflict with
: Chazal's understanding of "Vetzarta Hakesef".)

I looked through the archives, I didn't find any reference to that pasuq.

Mostly our discussions were of Avraham's coin -- which if we look was
really a coin of Avraham, with no claim as to age, and whether Avraham
paying for Me'aras haMachpeilah with 400 sheqel "oveir lasocheir" was
indication there was coinage, or proof there wasn't. (Was a sheqel oveer
lasocheir a coin, or because there were no coins, some 1 sheqel pieces
of silver looked more reliable than others.) And a little of the fiery
machatzis hasheqel described by the Tanchuma
<https://www.sefaria.org/Midrash_Tanchuma%2C_Ki_Tisa.9.5> to explain the
"zeh" of "zeh yitenu" in Shemos 30:13, quoted by Rashi. What would they
need to be shown if not coinage? A hologram of a random lump of silver?

I assume you are talking about Berakhos 47b, which contrasts pidyon
maaser sheini on kesef "sheyeish aleha tzurah", in contrast to an asimon.

A similar contrast between coinage an an asimon appears in BM 47b, but
there is no implication that the deOraisa referred to minted coins.

Personally, I like your Mar 2018 suggestion:
> Even more balebatish: Coins hadn't yet been invented. Therefore Moshe
> had never seen one. *If* there is a requirement that the ten gerah of
> silver be minted into a coin before being given to the mishkan, Moshe
> would have to understand what such a thing looked like, and make an
> example to explain it to the people. (Ditto for pidyon maaser sheni,
> but by then they'd already seen what a "coin" was.) Perhaps this was
> the invention of the coin, and it merely took another six centuries or
> so for the idea to catch on among the nations that this Jewish ritual
> object might have secular applications.

So, pidyon and machatzis hasheqel requires this ritual thing of a coin,
and coins as currency did indeed become commoplace later.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life isn't about finding yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Life is about creating yourself.
Author: Widen Your Tent               - George Bernard Shaw
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Monday, June 24, 2019, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> This is not a problem. You are allowed to send your employees to the
> chenvani or shulchani to get paid. CM 229:10. As long as they receive
> the money on time and agree to the arrangement.

Yes but then you are not mekayem the mitzva of paying in time.

> If the sakhir knows that the baal habayis usually doesn't have money on
> hand until market day, it's not bal talin if he doesn't get paid until
> market day. The Rama adds that if the norm is to pay later, it's not
> bal talin to pay later.

> So I would think that if your vender has a card reader, there is
> no problem paying by card.

I thought I made that clear.  You definitely don't violate the lav. The
question  im asking is how can you be mekayem the aseh.

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 08:44:51PM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
:> So I would think that if your vender has a card reader, there is
:> no problem paying by card.

: I thought I made that clear.  You definitely don?t violate the lav. The
: question  im asking is how can you be mekayem the aseh.

This asei is a chiyuv, not a mitzvah qiyumis. You can't just skip out
on fulfilling the asei.

Which is why it's hard to believe that all that discussion is of which
cases are oveir "only" the asei. Even if the mention only mentions bal
talin. How could it write "if you do X, or Y, or Z, or... you aren't
over bal talin" without not mentioning in in any of those se'ifim that
you're still not allowed to do any of these things anyway?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You want to know how to paint a perfect
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   painting?  It's easy.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Make yourself perfect and then just paint
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    naturally.              -Robert Pirsig

On Monday, June 24, 2019, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 08:44:51PM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
> :> So I would think that if your vender has a card reader, there is
> :> no problem paying by card.
>
> : I thought I made that clear.  You definitely don?t violate the lav. The
> : question  im asking is how can you be mekayem the aseh.
>
> This asei is a chiyuv, not a mitzvah qiyumis. You can't just skip out
> on fulfilling the asei.
>
> You aren?t skipping out. You are creating a situation where there is no
chiyuv aseh either.

Which is why it's hard to believe that all that discussion is of which
> cases are oveir "only" the asei. Even if the mention only mentions bal
> talin. How could it write "if you do X, or Y, or Z, or... you aren't
> over bal talin" without not mentioning in in any of those se'ifim that
> you're still not allowed to do any of these things anyway?
>
> My understanding is that the aseh and lav go together. Whenever there
would be an issur of bal talin there is also an aseh of byomo teeten
scharo. However, if you create a situation where the lav does not apply by
for example sending the workers to the chenvani then the aseh likewise
doesn?t apply.

My point was that by paying with a credit card you are creating a situation
where you will not be mekayem the mitzva. There is no aveira/issur to do
that, it?s just that we should want to be mekayem as many mitzva as we can
especially mitzvos doraysa which there aren?t so many of.

Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger                 You want to know how to paint a perfect
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   painting?  It's easy.
> Author: Widen Your Tent      Make yourself perfect and then just paint
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    naturally.              -Robert Pirsig
>
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I took part of the conversation off list because I feared we were just
dealing with miscommunication. But in that exchange, I found a real
difference in understanding between RMBluke and me. Curious to know
whether the rest of the chevrah can help clear this up.

The other RMB understands the asei as being paying your worker the same
day. "Beyomo titein sekharo".

I am not sure "yomo" hear means day.

First, it means up to a half-day. If the worker stops before sheqi'ah,
you have until sheqi'ah. If he stops at sheqi'ah or during the night,
you have the whole night. But the night isn't a "yom" in neither the 12
nor 24 hour sense. It is, in the general "in its time" sense of the word.

Second, Both the SA and the AhS start CM 339 talking about the asei
and lavin of paying bizmano. First I thought-- this isn't the Rambam,
where diyuq in lashon is necessarily valid. BUT, after I sent the last
private email, I bothered to open Hil' Seckhirus 11:1, which does begin
"mitzvas asei litein sekhar hasakhir bizmano, shene'emar 'beyomo...'"

(I mention the AhS's language because my attitude toward the subject is
strongly shaped by having learned it in AhS Yomi a few months ago. So,
his wording is my first impression.)

The difference between RMB and my positions would be whether it's possible
to avoid the lavin and yet not fulfill the asei.

RMBluke is saying yes -- if you pay him when expected, but the expectation
isn't same-day. And thus he asks about a credit card payment that doesn't
clear immediately. ("T+0" -- time + 0 days -- is how we say it in the
trading industry.)

I worked with the idea that beyomo is just an idiom for bizmano, and so
the asei and the lav are both about paying him when you agreed. So, if
he offers a credit card option and you use it, you would fulfil the asei.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "As long as the candle is still burning,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it is still possible to accomplish and to
Author: Widen Your Tent      mend."
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF        - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter


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