Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 40

Fri, 17 May 2019

• 1. Re: Shva Na's etc. (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Shva Na's etc. (Micha Berger)
• 3. The "Unknown Days" of the Jewish Calendar (Lawrence Levine)
• 4. Re: Shva Na's etc. (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: The "Unknown Days" of the Jewish Calendar (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Shva Na's etc. (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Shva Na's etc. (Zev Sero)
• 8. Shva Na's etc. (Michael Poppers)
• 9. Re: Shva Na's etc. (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Shva Na's etc. (Micha Berger)

.
> As sha"tz during my aveilus for my mother a"h I daven out of
> the large AS siddur. It has started me trying to do, one could
> say at long last, trying to do shva na's.

ArtScroll does have a horizontal line above shva na's, but NOT when it is
the first letter of the word. Apparently they expect you to be aware of the
rule that "If the first letter is a shva then it is always na unless the
word is shtayim."

If find this very easy to forget, especially with letter pairs that glide
together in English but not in Hebrew. (What's the word for such pairs? I
think "dipthong" is only for vowels.) In Yishtabach, for example, I'd love
a reminder to say "b*rachos" instead of "brachos".

> I also was caught once saying l'eyla in kaddish me'l'ra.
> Embarrasing. The AS does not indicate me'l'ra's.

Well, they do put a meteg on every word that is me'l'eil. Every word
lacking the meteg ought to be me'l'ra. If you want a siddur that has an
explicit mark for me'l'ra, I suggest the Rinat Yisrael, which puts a
sideways "8" over such syllables. But not all the time, and I don't know
what their rule is.

Akiva Miller
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More significant than notation... There are two different sets of rules
for sheva floating around various siddurim. The Baal haTanya apparently
followed the Razah (Rav Shelomo Zalman Katz / Rav Zalman Hanau [his
birthplace], 1687-1746), and so that's what you will find in Nusach Ari
siddurim, among others.

I have had a mental picture of the Razah as something of a non-conformist,
ever since I saw he has "Rubbi Yishmael omer", with a qubutz instead
of the usual patach or (in some eidos) chiriq. And it is possible that
the Baal haTanya only coincidentally happened upon sheva rules which
give results consistent with the Razah's.

The other common choice, eg Artstroll, is the Gra's understanding of
Rav Eilyahu Bachur's (Rav Eliyahu ben Asher haLeiv Ashkenazi, or to
academics: Eliya Levita, 1469-1549) rules.

It is the latter which Ben Yehudah runs with.

I assume that there could be Yekkishe siddurim that use R/Dr Mordechai
Breuer's interpretation of R' Eliyahu Bachur's rules. His interpretation
reduces the gap between it and the Razah's position. But the thought just
hit me, I didn't look around siddurim to see if anyone does use RMB's
version.

(I compiled the three versions of the lists of rules, see below.)


On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 08:09:47AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: ArtScroll does have a horizontal line above shva na's...
...
: Well, they do put a meteg on every word that is me'l'eil.

Both of these decisions actually break mesorah. In Tiberian niqud*
a line over a letter is a rafe mark, meaning the same thing as an
undotted bege"d kefe"t, but more noticable -- or more usable when
there is no room in the manuscript for dotting the plosives.

And a meseg is a Tiberian trope mark, and by using it as an accent
you have two uses for the same symbol in any pesuqim written with
trope. (As AS does for Shema.)

(Tiberian niqud is the system we pretty much exclusively use, except
Teimanim who still have occasional use of Bavli niqud.)


:                                        If you want a siddur that has an
: explicit mark for me'l'ra, I suggest the Rinat Yisrael, which puts a
: sideways "8" over such syllables. But not all the time, and I don't know
: what their rule is.

I think Rinat Yisrael is a "he", not a "they", R/Dr Shelomo Tal. Funded
by the Misrad haChinukh, but a one-man job.

RST's notation is to put an inifinity over the milra accent in words
that Israelis would guess were milra, and "<" to denote mil'eil, also
only where he judged that most Israelis would assume incorrectly.

I don't think there is a hard rule for you to know. If the word has
neither symbol, imagine saying it in an Israeli accent, and figure
that's the right emphasis. Not a perfect system.


And now, my understanding of the rules for sheva:

All:

aleph: a sheva in the *first* letter (e.g. shema)
       "Shtei" is a common exception.

beis:  the *second* of two sheva's are next to each other in the middle
       of the word (e.g. Mordechai)
       But not at the end of the word (eg neft).

--



gimel: after a tenu'ah *g*edolah [long vowel] (e.g. Peeynechas)
       Except for the melupum at the begining of a word (e.g. uvrachah)

dalet: under an os *d*egushah (e.g. dab'ru)

hei:   under the first of two osios *h*adomos [identical letters] (e.g. ran'nu)

--



gimel: sheva following a trope that is "nasog achor" e.g. "yoch'lu lachem"
       (Raza"h's rule zayin)

dalet: sheva following the 1st of 2 different tropes on the same word,
       e.g. "hama'achil'cha", "yatz'u"
       (Raza"h's rule tes)
       (exception: kadma-zakeif on one word or on a hyphenated word is not
       considered two different tropes, e.g. "v'halviim", "ulchalosam")

hei:   sheva following a meseg (but not every meseg is still printed in
       the text, nor is every meseg in the text from the originals)
       (Raza"h's rule vuv)
       (exceptions: 1. meseg between patach and yud-sheva (e.g. "vayhi",
       "vaynahageihu"),
       2. meseg on chirik or segol of binyan hispa'el (e.g.
       "mishtachavim", "esnahalah")

--



gimel: after a tenu'ah *g*edolah [long vowel] (e.g. Peen'chas) that doesn't
       have the word's only trop. Or perhaps: Not if the tenu'ah gedolah
       denotes an accent mil'eil.

dalet: under an os *d*egushah (e.g. dab'ru)

hei:   under the first of two osios *h*adomos [identical letters]
       (e.g. ran'nu)

vuv:   a sheva following a meseg (mnemonic: which looks like a vuv)
       Given RAP's "mem" for nach (below), this must mean only where the
       meseg is alongside a tenu'ah that isn't qalah.

zayin: after a nasag achor, where the neginah moved (zaz)

ches:  chatufos [the shortened patach, kamatz or segol]

tes:   a sheva that follows the first neginah, in a word that has two
       t'amim (see rule gimel)

yud:   any yud that has a sheva after a vav hahipuch; eg: vayedaber

Off another source I found the following:
Razah: A sheva immediately before an undotted b,g,d,k,p,t (yaat'fu)


Raza"h's four rules for nach (others define nach by default); mnemonic:
"miqnos":

mem:    meteg under a tenu'ah qalah the sheva after it is nach.
        Identifying tenu'os qalos was a chiddush of the Razah's,
        not to be confused with tenu'os qetanos -- an idea borrowed
        from Arabic grammar by R' Yosef Qimchi, the Radaq's father.)
        eg: vihyitem, shimu, tichyu. See rule vuv, above.

quf:    following a tenu'ah ketanah that doesn't have a meseg (the flip-side
        of gimel + vuv, above)

nun:    after a neginas ta'am, even if also after a tenu'ah gedolah (see gimel)

samech: at the end of a word, regardless of dageish or previous sheva.         

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 26th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Netzach: When is domination or taking
Fax: (270) 514-1507         control just a way of abandoning one's self?

This coming week, an unsuspecting person wishing to catch a minyan, who
walks into a random shul in many places around the world, might be in for a
surprise. After the Shemoneh Esrei prayer on Sunday there will be no
Tachanun. On Monday there will be Selichos; and on Thursday there again
won?t be Tachanun! Why would this be? No Tachanun generally signifies that
it is a festive day;[1]<https://ohr.edu/5146#_edn1> yet,
no other observances are readily noticeable. As for the reciting of
Selichos on Monday, they are usually reserved for a fast day; yet no one
seems to be fasting! What is going on?


For more please see  https://to.ly/1z5wP


YL
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On 16/5/19 3:57 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> More significant than notation... There are two different sets of rules
> for sheva floating around various siddurim. The Baal haTanya apparently
> followed the Razah (Rav Shelomo Zalman Katz / Rav Zalman Hanau [his
> birthplace], 1687-1746), and so that's what you will find in Nusach Ari
> siddurim, among others.

I know of no evidence for this.   The Tehilas Hashem siddur uses his 
system only because the siddur from which it was originally copy/pasted 
in the 1940s did so.    The newer edition printed in EY was completely 
reset and uses the system taught by R Mottel Shusterman AH, who was the 
baal korei at 770 and at the LR's instruction taught dikduk at Oholei Torah.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

> This coming week, an unsuspecting person wishing to catch a /minyan/, 
> who walks into a random /shul /in many places around the world, might be 
> in for a surprise. After the /Shemoneh/ /Esrei/ prayer on Sunday there 
> will be no /Tachanun/. On Monday there will be /Selichos/; and on 
> Thursday there again won?t be /Tachanun/! Why would this be? No 
> /Tachanun/ generally signifies that it is a festive day;[1] 
> <https://ohr.edu/5146#_edn1> yet, no other observances are readily 
> noticeable. As for the reciting of /Selichos/ on Monday, they are 
> usually reserved for a fast day; yet no one seems to be fasting! What is 
> going on?

I repeat my objections to this article from last year, when you also 
linked to it.

Come on.  Neither Pesach Sheni nor Lag Be'omer can possibly be described 
as "unknown days".   It's just not true. Anyone who has never heard of 
these days has never heard of tachanun either, and wouldn't notice 
whether it's being said or not.  The author himself later notes that 
even in chu"l there is the tradition of an outing on Lag Ba'omer, though 
he strangely refers to it dismissively, saying there are no observances 
"unless one counts" this one.  That's a bit like saying Chanukah has no 
observances unless one counts the menorah, etc. If the author wants to 
write about these days, let him write about them; there's no need to 
pretend they're "unknown" as an excuse.

I also take issue with the author's characterisation of Behab as "Days 
of Tefilah" on which, by the way, some people also fast.  On the 
contrary, they are voluntary fast days, which nowadays have mostly 
fallen into desuetude.  As fast days, those observing them say selichos 
and read Vayechal.  Those who are not observing them don't.

I suppose that if one who is not observing them davens in a minyan that 
is, it would make sense to selichos with them. If there are minyanim 
where there are not ten fasting, so they don't read Vayhechal, but they 
still say selichos, I assume the idea is that it's "officially" a 
fasters' minyan, but it just so happens that lately there have not been 
enough fasters so they had to cancel the Vayechal, but they still 
continue the previous practice of saying selichos, like a shul that's 
officially Nusach Ashkenaz even if everyone who currently attends davens 
Sfard.

I will not be so foolish as to claim there are no communities where it 
has lately become the "established custom" not to fast but still to say 
Selichos; there are so many different customs that it's foolish to 
insist that *anything* doesn't exist. So I will merely say that I have 
never heard of such a thing.  But even if such communities exist, it is 
seriously backwards to characterise the days as the author does.  The 
selichos is always secondary to and a consequence of the fast, not vice 
versa.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 08:47:58PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: >More significant than notation... There are two different sets of rules
: >for sheva floating around various siddurim. The Baal haTanya apparently
: >followed the Razah...
: 
: I know of no evidence for this...

I don't think it's compelling evidence either. Which is why I said
"apparently".

And, FWIW, Seder haAvodah:
:                                       Tehilas Hashem siddur uses his
: system only because the siddur from which it was originally
: copy/pasted in the 1940s did so.    The newer edition printed in EY
: was completely reset and uses the system taught by R Mottel
: Shusterman AH, who was the baal korei at 770 and at the LR's
: instruction taught dikduk at Oholei Torah.

And still has the Razah's shevas. (According to R Alex Heppenheimer,
who was one of 3 proofreaders of the new edition.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 27th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507               taking control result in relationship?

On 17/5/19 10:18 am, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 08:47:58PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : >More significant than notation... There are two different sets of rules
> : >for sheva floating around various siddurim. The Baal haTanya apparently
> : >followed the Razah...
> :
> : I know of no evidence for this...
> 
> I don't think it's compelling evidence either. Which is why I said
> "apparently".

But what is the non-compelling evidence?   The Alter Rebbe never saw the 
US Tehilas Hashem siddur, and was not involved in its production. The 
late LR, who was involved in the production, said publicly that it was 
done in haste and therefore not everything was exactly as it should have 
been. He didn't specifically mention the stars, but on a rush job that 
would have been a very low priority.


> And, FWIW, Seder haAvodah:
> :                                       Tehilas Hashem siddur uses his
> : system only because the siddur from which it was originally
> : copy/pasted in the 1940s did so.    The newer edition printed in EY
> : was completely reset and uses the system taught by R Mottel
> : Shusterman AH, who was the baal korei at 770 and at the LR's
> : instruction taught dikduk at Oholei Torah.
> 
> And still has the Razah's shevas. (According to R Alex Heppenheimer,
> who was one of 3 proofreaders of the new edition.)

No, it does not.  It has very few stars, I think even fewer than Artscroll.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

In Avodah V37n39, RYGB noted:
> I also was caught once saying l'eyla in kaddish me'l'ra. Embarrasing.
The AS does not indicate me'l'ra's.
> The siddur I use personally, the German Roedelheim siddur, does not
identify either. <
(By "either", I'm assuming that RYGB meant to say that the "German
Roedelheim siddur" also does not "indicate me'l'ra's"; his words could be
interpreted as meaning that said *siddur* does not indicate either *mil'eil*
or *mil'ra*.)  The default accent for *t'fila* is *mil'ra*, and printers
tend to only indicate exceptions from the default.  (Whether Aramaic
follows the same rules as Hebrew is a separate discussion, but for purposes
of *siddur* publishing, let us assume it does.)

R'Micha replied:
>> I am soliciting recommendations for an Ashkenaz siddur that will help me
out with these (and perhaps other) enhancements of tefillah. <<
> If you want to see what the 19th cent O-Haskalishe gramarians (including
R Shlomo-Zalman Hanau [Raza"h] and R Wolf Heidenheim [Ravva"h]) did to
Nusach Ashkenaz, you need an Eizor Eliyahu. <
If you don't mind using a full-size *siddur*, you might want to [per]use
R'Hofmeister's T'filas Y'shurun (
https://www.moreshesashkenaz.org/en/associated-publications/76-tefilas-yeshurun-2).
As just one example of corrections it made to the Roedelheim (influenced by
the noted grammarians), see this week's Mesorah "Nusach Ashkenaz - Long
Tachanun" thread re *m'qaveh* vs. *m'qavah*.

A gut'n Shabbes
and all the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:09:44AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:> I don't think it's compelling evidence either. Which is why I said
:> "apparently".

: But what is the non-compelling evidence?   The Alter Rebbe never saw
: the US Tehilas Hashem siddur, and was not involved in its
: production...

Because there are other places where Nusach Ari follows the Razah's
tenu'ah qalah concept. The one case I recall is the Razah's Shaarei
Tefillah was the first to have Adon Olam say "beterem kol yetzur nivra".
Which the Siddur haRav haZaqein has as well, complete with a melupum
malei, so we see the vav in "yetzur".

And while the original Tehillas Hashem copied Seder haAvodah (1911,
Vilna), the above could be why they chose a Razah-based pointing rather
than copying another siddur. The project wasn't run by amei haarez,
and they did give RYYS (L's Friardiker Rebbe) a voice in the result.

Which is why the new edition was loathe to change things. The odds that
the Razah's niqud was an intentional choice was too high.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 27th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507               taking control result in relationship?

On a very differen note, I found it easier to remember sheva rules by
recasting them into rules about syllables.

A sheva nach under a letter is the vowel of a syllable.

A sheva na means the consonant is closing the syllable; i.e. we just
finished a "consonant-vowel-consonant" syllable.

So:

Hebrew doesn't have a syllable that is only a consonant. So, the first
letter's sheva has to be na, because the first letter can't be a syllable
all by itself.

(It also doesn't have very many two-consonant dipthongs like /sht/ in
the one syllable "shtei".)

Similarly, by definition, the vowel of an open syllable is a long
vowel. So a sheva under the next letter can't be nach, as that would
have meant that letter closes a syllable with a long vowel in it.

And if a letter is degushah, the second half of the letter starts a
syllable, and the sheva must be that syllable's vowel, so it must
be na.

If the same letter both closed one syllable and opened the next, it
would only be written once, and the Baalei Mesorah would give it a
dagish. So, if you see the same letter twice, you know they must be in
the same syllable, and any sheva must be the short vowel inside that
closed syllable.

(And an os geronois is too faint to close a syllable, so it could
never take a dageish. Except the reish, which the Seifer haYetzirah
says takes a dageish and the two times in Tanakh it gets a dageish
are not exceptional cases.)

This is something Bavli niqud does better than having a sheva nach symbol
(never mind sharing its symbol) and a dageish for a doubled letter. It
instead marks the syllable as closed by putting a line above the letter
that opens it. Whether it's also over the vowel (and all their vowels
are above the letter) or between the vowel and the letter depended on
whether the syllable was closed by doubling the next letter (a Tiverian
degushah) or by just simply using the letter.


And: Rules should be seen as a means of explaining the patterns seen
in the Mesoretic niqud, trop, and margin notes balancing keeping the
rules sane in complexity and keeping the number of exceptions down to a
minimum. It is the individual examples, not the rules, which are to be
treated as miSinai.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 27th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507               taking control result in relationship?


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