Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 34

Sat, 27 Apr 2019

• 1. Re: Heseibah, Halachah and Science (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Heseibah, Halachah and Science (Sholom Simon)
• 3. Pesach mitzvos at night (Michael Poppers)
• 4. Re: Pesach mitzvos at night (Akiva Miller)
• 5. kesubah d'irkasa (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 6. Re: Pesach mitzvos at night (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Pesach mitzvos at night (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Re: lifestyle choices (Micha Berger)

.
R' Micha Berger cited Rav Asher Weiss at
https://en.tvunah.org/2019/04/17/pesach-hesebah

> ... This principal idea is the key to understanding the
> general question of Torah and Science.
>
> ... As an aside, even from the scientific side of things, we
> only accept proof after experimenting and proving, ie. the
> scientific process. To the best of my knowledge no study or
> survey was ever done to prove that leaning on the right is just
> as safe as leaning on the left. While we don't see a reason for
> there to be a difference, this would be our unproven theory ...

This has always been my understanding of these things.

Similarly, I am not aware of any rigorous double-blind study on whether
pregnant women miscarry after stepping on discarded fingernails.

I am also unaware of any research into the many situations which Chazal say
are harmful to one's memory.

R' Josh Backon did post some research here (for example, at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol08/v08n035.shtml#11 and
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol16/v16n151.shtml#09) to show that it is
dangerous to eat fish with meat. But even there, I am not aware that there
were any actual tests done to *prove* his conclusions.

My personal interest has been on the other side of this coin: Why don't
these "dangers" count a forbidden superstitions?

We people nowadays do not see any connection between these causes and their
supposed effects. So what did Chazal see, and how did they come to these
conclusions? How often did a woman miscarry, and the circumstances led them
to believe that the miscarriage was because she stepped on some
fingernails? That boggles my mind. To my way of thinking, the time delay is
so slow that any rational person would have to admit that the fingernails
were only one of several possible causes.

This leads me to two possible conclusions: (1) Perhaps Chazal never saw a
case where a woman did step on fingernails, and successfully delivered her
baby. If every single test case resulted in miscarriage, then their
conclusions are reasonable. But how can they have been so carefully
observant of every single case? (2) The other possibility is that the
belief in this danger is not the result of anything they observed, but was
Received Revelation. This seems much more likely to me, because it is a
simple entryway into halacha. Without a Revelation from Shamayim, wouldn't
a belief in these dangers be a forbidden superstition?

Akiva Miller
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His teshuva seems to fit a meta-halachic theory I've heard from a teacher
that many times Chazal knew the mesorah/law/torah she'bal'peh, but didn't
necessarily know the reason and they (to put it bluntly) guessed at the
reason.  I've heard the kashrus status of bee honey described in that way
-- i.e., nobody disputed that bee honey was kosher, but they were incorrect
when they ascribed a scientific reason for it.

How might that apply to other situations?  (Killing lice on shabbos?).  It
is a general meta-halachic rule?  If not, when is it applied and when not?
Or is this a post-hoc justification?  I have no idea...

Another teshuvah by R' Asher Weiss. I'm sharing it for the metahalakhah
> implications. Must heseibah be on the left even now that we know there
> is no greater risk of choking by reclining on the right?
>
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In Avodah V37n31, RSS asked:
>  Most mitzvos are done by day.  Most Pesach mitzvos are done at night.
Are there any deeper reasons for this (beyond halacha and/or "the geula
started at night")?  <
On Mesorah recently, I mentioned:
[[  note what RNW quoted *b'sheim haGRA* here
<https://www.aish.com/tp/i/m/48936372.html> (stanza "THE ANOMALY OF THE
FEMALE FORCE") ]]
By and large, "layla" portends problems.  "[H]alayla hazeh" of *g'ulas
Mitzrayim* (as well as the "layla hahu" that began the turn towards *qiymu
v'qiblu*) was, by contrast, beneficial like *or*.  We begin the
mini-process of killer-Bs (*b'diqah*, *biyur*, and *bittul*) at night, but
it is "or l'14", a night that qualitatively is day.  *Yachol mib'od yom*?
Nope, has to be at the time of "zeh", the *layla hazeh* that is like *or*.

Quoting from "Parsha Potpourri" V14n29 by R'Ozer Alport:
---


Near the beginning of the Maggid portion of the Haggadah, the youngest
child present asks the
Mah Nishtanah, a series of four questions that highlight atypical actions
we do at the Seder that differ
from our conduct on all other nights of the year. However, the Vilna Gaon
points out that the expression
?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? seems to be grammatically incorrect, for the
word ???? is feminine ? as
evidenced by its plural form ????? ? in which case the question should be
worded .?? ????? ????? ????
The Vilna Gaon explains that the concept of night symbolizes difficulty and
suffering.
Accordingly, the word ???? should be feminine. However, in situations where
the darkness is actually
beneficial, it is transformed and becomes masculine. In this case, the
Zohar HaKadosh (Vol. 2 38a)
teaches that on the night of the Exodus from Egypt, a tremendous light
shone that was as bright as day,
and Dovid describes it as (Tehillim 139:12) ???? ???? ???? ? a night that
shines like the day, with the verb
???? in the masculine. On this night, it only appeared to be dark, but in
reality, it was a remarkably joyous
time that was analogous to day. We allude to this by referring to the Seder
night as ????? ??? , a ???? that
is compared to ??? (day), a word which is masculine.
However, the Torah Temimah vehemently disagrees with the Vilna Gaon?s
explanation, for he
maintains that the original question does not present any difficulty. He
writes that although the word ????
appears to be feminine, it is an exception to the rules of grammar and is
in fact masculine, as we find in
the Megillah that when Achashverosh?s sleep was disturbed, it is described
(Esther 6:1) as ????? ????
???? ??? ???? , not ????? ???? , which would be the feminine construct.
If so, why is ????? the plural of ???? , which seems to indicate that it is
feminine? The Torah
Temimah notes that there are other clearly masculine words that follow this
pattern and are similarly
exceptions in this regard, such as ???? (firstborn), which becomes ??????
in the plural, making it appear to
be feminine even though it is in fact masculine, and so too is the case
with ???? and .?????
To resolve the dispute between these two great Rabbinical authorities, Rav
Yisroel Reisman
suggests that the Vilna Gaon?s logic regarding the night of the Exodus also
applies to the night of
Achashverosh?s interrupted sleep, which was also a positive seminal moment
in the Megillah worthy of
being likened to the masculine ??? . He adds that since Chazal teach us
(Berachos 60b) that everything that
Hashem does is ultimately for the good, every difficult episode in our
lives that presents itself as dark
???? is actually a ??? full of light waiting to be discovered and revealed.

---


and all the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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.
R' Sholom Simon asked:

> Most mitzvos are done by day. Most Pesach mitzvos are done at
> night.  Are there any deeper reasons for this (beyond halacha
> and/or "the geula started at night")?

We need to start by being more specific about which mitzvos we're
discussing. I presume that you are talking about the Seder. IOW, the eating
of the Korban Pesach when there *was* a Korban Pesach, and also the related
mitzvos, such as matzah, haggada, and others. I hope we can agree that the
zmanim of these "related mitzvos" are all tied to the eating of the Korban
Pesach (as it is written, "Baavur Zeh").

Okay, now to answer your question. If these mitzvos would be assigned to
the daytime, which day would you suggest that they be done on?

Keep in mind that prior to Matan Torah, nights came *after* the days. In
Mitzrayim we had not yet switched to the current system. Thus: The original
Korban Pesach was shechted on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten on the
night of the 14th; Makas Bechoros was even later on the night of the 14th,
and we finally left in the daytime on the 15th.

So, if the Seder would be in the daytime, which day? We can't have the
Seder on the day of the 14th, because the re-enactment of eating the Korban
Pesach would end up being done PRIOR to the anniversary of shechting it. We
can't have the Seder in the daytime of the 15th either, because then we'd
be doing it at a time when the original was already nosar.

But the way Hashem told us to do it is a perfect re-enactment: We have our
Seder during the nighttime that is between the day of the 14th and the day
of the 15th, *exactly* as it originally occurred. Only in this manner can
one "see himself as if he had left Mitzrayim personally."

(According to my presentation above, it turns out that Makas Bechoros
occurred at midnight on the 14th, and we re-enact it on the night of the
15th. I do concede this to be a weakness in my answer. However, we don't
really re-enact Makas Bechoros at the Seder at all. We do *mention* Makas
Bechoros at the Seder, but in the very same sentence we mention the other
nine makos too, and those dates are even farther away. One could argue that
if we commemorate Makas Bechoros at all, it is done not at the Seder
itself, but by Taanis Bechorim on the 14th, the exactly correct day.)

Akiva Miller
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Does anyone have a printable kesubah d'irkasa that you can email me (or can
be downloaded)

 

Thanks, Mordechai Cohen

mco...@touchlogic.com

 

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On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:06:21PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Keep in mind that prior to Matan Torah, nights came *after* the days...

Is that so? Rashbam aside, the prooftext for our days is from Maaseh
Bereishis and "vayhi erev vayhi voqer".

But in any case, I would point to another calendar in which the night
follows the day -- avodas habayis. And so the zeman including the next
night isn't really surprising. To my mind the question would be
more why the zeman akhilah doesn't start until night, why is it /only/
the night after and not from after haqaravah including the following night.

For that matter, since the Pesach has most of the dinim of shelamim,
not eating it the next day is equally unique to the pesach.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 4th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Chesed: When is Chesed an
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           imposition on others?

.
I wrote:
> Keep in mind that prior to Matan Torah, nights came *after*
> the days...

R' Micha Berger countered:
> Is that so? Rashbam aside, the prooftext for our days is from
> Maaseh Bereishis and "vayhi erev vayhi voqer".

I anyone wants more info about that pasuk and how Rashbam understood it,
check out the archives, on the thread titled "night before day or after
day".

But that thread doesn't include any mention of Rav Moshe Sternbuch, who
wrote at length on this in Moadim Uzmanim 5:315

> The truth is that prior to Matan Torah, the night was after
> the day, and it was only after Matan Torah that the day begins
> in the evening.
(in the paragraph Amnam L'achar)

For more information, you can check out the Moadim Uzmanim, or click on
http://old.torah.org/advanced/haaros/behar97.htm  Here's one piece of what
you'll find there:

> Rav Moshe Sternbuch (Moadim Uzmanim, part 5, #315) and Rav Yaakov
> Kamenetsky (Emes L'yaakov Parshas Bo 12:2) show how this concept
> fits perfectly into the verse: "Eat matzos on the fourteenth at
> night." (Shmos [Exodus] 12:18). Pesach is the fifteenth of the
> month -- why does the Torah here state the "fourteenth at night?"
> Since they still had the laws of Bnei Noach (the Torah hadn't yet
> been given), the night belonged to the previous day. The night of
> Pesach actually occurred on the night of the fourteenth (that is,
> the night following the fourteenth day). In later years it would
> be seen as the night of the fifteenth, because the night would
> precede the day.

DISCLAIMER: I make no claims that this is absolute Truth for everyone. I
apologize for giving that impression in my previous post. Rather, I
recognize that not everyone holds this way. But for me, it is very
reasonable, especially in light of the current question about the timing of
the Seder.

[And on a personal note, even from before I really learned Torah, this
seemed to be the simplest meaning of the pasuk in Bereshis: "God made the
light, and then it was evening, and then it was morning, and that defines
one day." If the pasuk was intended to define a day as being a nighttime
and the following daytime, then it would have used the words Layla and Yom;
by choosing the words Erev and Boker, the Boker seems to demarcate the end
of the day. In my opinion.]

Akiva Miller
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On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 12:32:16PM -0400, Joshua Meisner via Avodah wrote:
: In the Hakdama to the Shaarei Yosher, R' Shimon Shkop notes the absurdity
: of thinking that the command kedoshim tihyu/perushim tihyu ki kadosh Ani
: means asceticism as a goal within itself. Would it even be coherent to
: suggest that Hashem does not eat too much, does not sleep too much, etc.?
: Instead, he redefines/redirects ascetism to altruism...

I formulated it differently.

RSS defines qedushah as commitment to a given goal.

Li nir'eh this explains "harei at mequdeshes li" -- it's a statement of
her exclusive commitment.

Qedushah in the sense of holiness is leshitaso commitment to our purpose.
In addition, RSS says that purpose is "vehalakhta bidrakhav", and thus,
being meitiv others.

This will mean that anything that distracts us from this purpose is to
be avoided. The medrash's "qedoshim tihyu - perushim tihyu" is necessary
for humans, since we have multiple desires and motives that can come
into conflict. However, as the medrash continues "Qedushasi lemaalah
miqedushaskhem" -- Hashem has One Plan, and He is fully committed to it
without the possibility of distraction.

But also, anything we enjoy in order to enable helping others, including
*necessary* downtime, is also holy.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 4th day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Chesed: When is Chesed an
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           imposition on others?


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