Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 17

Wed, 06 Mar 2019

• 1. Re: Haftara of Pekudei (David Cohen)
• 2. Re: Where was the Mishkan stored? (elly bachrach)
• 3. Re: Where was the Mishkan stored? (Micha Berger)
• 4. derech psak (Rich, Joel)
• 5. mishna rishona (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Haftara of Pekudei (Arie Folger)
• 7. Re: Pikudei Clothing makes (or breaks) the man. (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: derech psak (Micha Berger)

Three years ago, in the week of Parashat Pekudei, I inquired here about
which Ashkenazi communities in chu"l would be reading the haftara "Vaya'as
Chirom" (Melachim I 7:40) (as per the Maharash, Maharil and Eliya Rabba)
rather than "Vatishlam kol hamelacha" (Melachim 1 7:51).

R'  Arie Folger replied:
>  Munich follows Frankfurt. Basel not always, but in this case the agree.
>  Which means Strasbourg will also read the same, as Basel and Strasbourg
>  are both Minhag Alsace. For Vienna I don't know yet. Ask me next time it
>  comes up.

"Next time it comes up" is this week, so I'm following up.  R' Folger, what
do they read in Vienna?
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On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:13 PM Micha Berger wrote:
> But looking at that pasuq in Yehoshua [(18:1)], "vayishkenu sham es Ohel
> Mo'eid".
> Sounds like they assembled the existing Mishkan at Shiloh.

How did you learn the mishna zevachim 14:6? Same top, but stone bottom, so
the kerashim were not in use.
Elly

On Mon, Mar 04, 2019 at 12:43:36PM -0600, elly bachrach wrote:
: How did you learn the mishna zevachim 14:6? Same top, but stone bottom, so
: the kerashim were not in use.

Meanwhile, I didn't think about it when I learned Zevachim. My first
thought is that the word choice in Yehoshua may be because the ohel
mo'eid refers to the yeri'os more than the kerashim.

And so, we're still left with the question of where the kerashim were
stored in Shiloh.

It is possible that Mishkan Shilo had both -- kerashim surrounded by
stone, so that the wals were both authentic to the tzivui in Shemos and
yet permanent?

In any case, if, as the gemara implies, it was the permanence of the
stone walls that made bamos assur during Mishkan Shiloh, then Nov and
Giv'on had temporary wals because bamos were allowed again. But what? The
original kerashim, other kerashim, or something else?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
mi...@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

Many RIETS/YU Rabbis are very machshiv Rav Asher Weiss. I'm just curious if
you have any thoughts on his psakim being based on an approach which
differs from the one I assume they received. I've heard him say in the past
that he is not enamored with the tzvei dinim approach. At the recent
yarchei kallah He made a point of saying that he stresses in his Yeshiva
that often times modern questions are not based on competing underlying
rishonic conceptualizations (I assume he meant chakira) but rather on
nuanced differentiations [That's what I pretty much heard] Do you agree
with my assessment from your experience and, if so, how should	that affect
a YU/RIETS product  evaluation of his psak.
KT
Joel Rich

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The Gemara in a number of places (e.g., Shavuot 4a) uses the principle
"Umishna lo zazah mimkoma" (the [original] Mishna did not move) to explain
why two mishnayot might seem contradictory. (This earlier version is "no
long operative.") Rashi (Shavuot) explains this principle on the basis of
oral transmission practicalities-the generations after Rebbi could not
"forget" the earlier one due to its being known in widespread "nodes."
Therefore, they left both versions intact and assumed that it was clear
that the later version was the primary one. The Ritva (Yevamot 30a) uses
the principles as an explanation as to why the two versions weren't cohered
(but sounds like they did want to keep the earlier version as well).
1. What's the purpose of keeping the earlier version?
2. If Rashi is correct, why wasn't the earlier version dropped when the switch to written vs. oral transmission was made?
3. Who changes their mind these days?
Kt
Joel Rich

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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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Sorry to disappoint you, but Minhag Vienna is to read Vatishlam. I checked
with people who know what was done before the war. But that should not
surporise, as Vienna follows Minhag Oberland, which is not identical with
Frankfurt.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 10:12 PM David Cohen <ddco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Three years ago, in the week of Parashat Pekudei, I inquired here about
> which Ashkenazi communities in chu"l would be reading the haftara "Vaya'as
> Chirom" (Melachim I 7:40) (as per the Maharash, Maharil and Eliya Rabba)
> rather than "Vatishlam kol hamelacha" (Melachim 1 7:51).
>
> R'  Arie Folger replied:
> >  Munich follows Frankfurt. Basel not always, but in this case the agree.
> >  Which means Strasbourg will also read the same, as Basel and Strasbourg
> >  are both Minhag Alsace. For Vienna I don't know yet. Ask me next time
> it
> >  comes up.
>
> "Next time it comes up" is this week, so I'm following up.  R' Folger,
> what do they read in Vienna?
>


-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://rabbifolger.net/

* Koscheres Geld (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/15/koscheres-geld-podcast/>

* Kennt die Existenz nur den Chaos? G?ttliches Vorsehen im J?dischen
Gedankengut (Podcast)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/14/kennt-die-existenz-nur-den-chaos-gttliches-vorsehen-im-judischen-gedankengut-podcast/>

* Halacha zum Wochenabschnitt: Baruch Hu uWaruch Schemo
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/11/halacha-zum-wochenabschnitt-baruch-hu-uwaruch-schemo/>

* Is there Order to the World? Providence in Jewish Thought
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/09/is-there-order-to-the-world-providence-in-jewish-thought/>

* What is Modern Orthodoxy (from a radio segment)
<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/02/08/what-is-modern-orthodoxy-from-a-radio-segment/>
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On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 10:36:10PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: Part of this portion goes into meticulous detail regarding the 'bigdei
: kehuna." The word "beged," in addition to meaning "garment" can also mean
: "betrayal" ("bagad" to deal treacherously and "b'gidah" treachery). What
: is this telling us? Clothing, garments or vestments like anything else
: used improperly is a betrayal of what's right.

I suggested in <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/tzitzis-advance-and-retreat>
that beged is garment in the sense of uniform or other symbol. And thus
they /bgd/ the person by hiding them behind the office.

This is in disinction to the other word used in chumash for clothing --
kesus. Like the kesus of the Gen Eden story, a kesus is for tzeni'us.

Which is why the Torah tells us to put "tzitzis al qanfei bigdeihem"
but the more constrained and knotting "gedilim taaseh lekha al 4
ganfei bigdekha.

Then there is levush, while used as a verb earlier in Tanakh (lilbosh),
isn't a noun until Esther. And even then, specitically for levush malkhus,
the garments of a king -- who in this case wasn't accepted as fit for
office even with all the "tekheiles and white, and a crown of gold and
a wrap of linen and purple". A failed beged? Either way, it wasn't
in scope for my discussion of the two presentations of the mitzvah of
tzitzis.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are not a human being in search
mi...@aishdas.org        of a spiritual experience. You are a
http://www.aishdas.org   spiritual being immersed in a human
Fax: (270) 514-1507      experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

On Wed, Mar 06, 2019 at 03:09:19AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Many RIETS/YU Rabbis are very machshiv Rav Asher Weiss. I'm just curious
: if you have any thoughts on his psakim being based on an approach
: which differs from the one I assume they received. I've heard him say
: in the past that he is not enamored with the tzvei dinim approach...

It wasn't too central to Rav Shimon's derekh, who was just as likely to
discuss how the two factors worked together behitztarfus. Just saying,
since Rav Dovid Lifshitz, and to some extent Rav Shimon Shkop, are
also RIETS. And that is where I learned R' Shimon's derekh. But on to
my point...

Lomdus isn't usually how pesaq is done. RARakkefetR has repeatedly pointed
out that RCBrisker wasn't the poseiq in Brisk. When he took the job of
Rav, he convince R Simcha Zelig Riger to come along. Where RSZR got the
job as Brisker dayan.

RARR opined that this is because lomdus makes it hard to pasqen. (And
his theory seems to make a lot of sense to me.) In lomdus the focus of
your learning is to see how both sides make sense. The better you are
at it, the harder it is going to be to pick sides. Brisker chumeros,
being machmir to be chosheish for all shitos, is a natural consequence.
But pasqening requires picking a favorite. And it requires giving some
level of credance to precedent, not only to how compelling one finds
the sevara.

Learning AhS was eye opening to me, to see an entirely different way
of analyzing halakhah than the lomdus of the yeshiva. AhS Yomi finishes
in the beginning of April be"H, I am very tempted to move my commute
learning to Tur - BY - SA - nosei keilim. BUT.... I haven't found
editions of the relevant books that my back could handle shlepping back
and for each workday.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
mi...@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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