Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 137

Fri, 21 Dec 2018

• 1. Re: Mechila (Alexander Seinfeld)
• 2. Re Rambam Hilchot Trumot (Isaac Balbin)
• 3. Re: Mechila (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Re: Mechila (Micha Berger)
• 5. peelers-borer (Rich, Joel)
• 6. culture (Eli Turkel)
• 7. contact sports (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Rambam Hilchot Trumot (Isaac Balbin)
• 9. boruch shaim kavod malchuso lolam vaaed in shma (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 10. Re: boruch shaim kavod malchuso lolam vaaed in shma (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: boruch shaim kavod malchuso lolam vaaed in shma (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: peelers-borer (Micha Berger)

>I have no sympathy for a husband who assaults his wife or a wife who
>assaults her husband. If you assault your spouse, you do not deserve
>your spouse.

Would you say the same for a spouse who assaults his/her spouse verbally?

Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 21:13:33 +0200
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>

> The last halacha in the Rambam's Hilchot Truma states the anyone eating 
> trumah says an additional bracha (v'tzivanu l'achol truma). He adds that 
> "qibalnu v'ra'inu" people say this bracha even if they eat challa of 
> chutz l'aretz.

> Qibalnu I understand but what does the Rambam mean when says that "we've 
> seen people say this bracha on challa of chutz l'aretz"?

When R' Aron Soloveichik z"l was asked about the difference between the
Mesora of today and yesteryear he explained that in his generation,
whilst they certainly knew about the Mesora -- they had the level of
Kiblu MeRaboseinu---theirs was accented and qualified by the mimetic
tradition which happens via seeing the Baal HaMesora -- Ra'inu --
performing Masoretic acts and decisions. He went on to explain that
though others were greater Talmidim of Moshe than Yehoshua, Yehoshua
was the one who was chosen to be the next link in the Mesora because he
was not just a good student of Torah, but because he did Shimush under
Moshe, and never left his side. In other words, his was not just Kibalnu
MeRoboseinu, but also Ra'inu and that is a qualitatively more authentic
version of the next Baal HaMesora.

You are asking a loaded question so I will have to answer it on a few layers.
First of all, I?m not sure what YOU mean by a verbal assault.
The legal definition of assault varies from state to state but generally: 
Simple assault is an attempt to do a serious bodily harm to another person,
or actually committing an act to put another in fear of serious bodily injury.  
Simple assault is usually classified as a misdemeanor.
So if by verbal assault, a husband or wife (without touching each other), puts
the other in fear of being hurt, then it meets the criteria of a crime (misdemeanor)
and in most states mandates an arrest.
With that scenario, yes, I would say the same for a spouse who verbally assaults the other.
What most lay people confuse assault with is a BATTERY which is any unlawful offensive physical contact 
with another person, with or without his or her consent. ... Unlike the crime of assault, battery requires that actual contact is made, 
while assault charges can be brought with only the threat of violence.
Though it may seem extreme to say that you don?t deserve your spouse if you commit a simple assault or battery, our own sages
have said that if your wife burns your food, you have every right to divorce her.
I think it boils down to the specifics and whole picture of each case.

I believe your question may have meant what if a spouse speaks disparagingly to his/her spouse.
In other words, what if a husband demeans his wife and calls her stupid or ugly, etc.
My feeling is that you are dealing with the tip of the iceberg and most likely you have a bad marriage
and a dysfunctional relationship.





> On Dec 20, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Alexander Seinfeld <seinf...@daasbooks.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> I have no sympathy for a husband who assaults his wife or a wife who
>> assaults her husband. If you assault your spouse, you do not deserve
>> your spouse.
> 
> Would you say the same for a spouse who assaults his/her spouse verbally?
> 
> 

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On Dec 20, 2018, at 1:03 AM, Alexander Seinfeld <seinf...@daasbooks.com> wrote:
:> I have no sympathy for a husband who assaults his wife or a wife who
:> assaults her husband. If you assault your spouse, you do not deserve
:> your spouse.

: > Would you say the same for a spouse who assaults his/her spouse verbally?

Hezeq and onaas devarim are different issurim. But they both are forms 
of harm recognized by halakhah.

(Maybe I mean all three are recognized: hezeq haguf and hezeq mamon are
different things, with different dinim.)

And if the ona'as devarim gets to the point of halvanas panim, it's compared
to retzichah. BM 58b lumps OD and pinning a nickname on someone together
with eishes ish as sins that cause gehennom to be permanent ("sheyordim
ve'ein olim") and ein lo cheileq le'olam haba (59a).

And of course, "noach lo le'adam shayapil es atzmo lekivshan ha'eish,
be'al yalbin penei chaveiro." (Mar Zutra, BM 59a) Which is taking
seriously, not exageration, in discussions of yeihareig ve'al ya'avor.

So to ammend my first paragraph, verbal abuse is far MORE vilified by
the din than hezeq.

I would consider answering: lo kol shekein!


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

From a write-up on borer and peelers:
"peelers for peels that are generally eaten with the fruit," (are "viewed as a sophisticated knife")[me- and thus not borer]
Me-1.which requires definition of how we determine "generally" (wo, essex
county, us, world...............) 2.Is a sieve a sophisticated fork??? 3.No
doubt that minhag yisrael includes many who do it-it's just not clear to me
how that developed (i.e a priori first principles seem to lead to
prohibition) - perhaps a good example of mimetic tradition?
KT
Joel Rich

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<<However, for the yechidim who realize it's going on and that everyone
is fooling themselves.... I see a big OTD risk as cynicism is bound to
creap in, as well as (including?) a loss of respect for any authority
figures who are fooled or caught blindfolding others.  >>

Indeed I am always bothered by those who claim that they are not influenced
at all but outside culture. Even if not directly we are all influenced by
outside forces. There is no such thing today as Jewish music since anything
the leviim sang has been lost. Living in Israel sefardi music is much
different than ashkenazi music simply because Arabic music is different
than Hungarian music.

Anyone who learns Rambam is influenced at some level by Greek philosophy.
Read rishonim on the reasons for dina demalchuta and compare it to the old
defenses of the rights of kings - just happen to be identical. Many
rishonim were familar with secular philosophy and even the Ramah knew
philosophy. In spite of appearances Chatam Sofer had a broad background and
spoke German.

All of this without referring to RAL who has a spirited defense of much
(certainly not all) of modern literature and parts of modern culture.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<< Can a parent permit a child to wound them? If yes, why are there such
problems for a doctor to treat their parent (assuming others can provide
similar care)?

What about voluntary surgery, eg cosmetic surgery not for shidduchim or
another devar mitzvah? >>

Certainly mechila works on some level. There are stories of RAL in his
younger years playing basketball with the students. Once a student
complained that it wasn;t fair because they could not block their rebbe.
RAL answered that in playing ball not to treat him as a rebbe.
Certainly we are talking about minor contact and not severe wounding

Kibud Av ve- Em is a step beyond ordinary treatment of others especially
causing a loss of blood. From what I have seen the standard psak is that a
doctor should preferably not treat a parent for anything requiring
incisions or blood. However, for anything serious that the child is better
than others than certainly, he is the doctor of choice.

I recall that RMF allows cosmetic surgery only foord "god reasons". This
incliudes feeling embarrased by one's appearance and also improvements
especially for women for shidduch persons. I assume he would not be happy
with various facial "improvements" for senior citizens

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 21:13:33 +0200
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>

> The last halacha in the Rambam's Hilchot Truma states the anyone eating 
> trumah says an additional bracha (v'tzivanu l'achol truma). He adds that 
> "qibalnu v'ra'inu" people say this bracha even if they eat challa of 
> chutz l'aretz.

> Qibalnu I understand but what does the Rambam mean when says that "we've 
> seen people say this bracha on challa of chutz l'aretz"?

When R' Aron Soloveichik z"l was asked about the difference between the
Mesora of today and yesteryear he explained that in his generation,
whilst they certainly knew about the Mesora -- they had the level of
Kiblu MeRaboseinu -- theirs was accented and qualified by the mimetic
tradition which happens via seeing the Baal HaMesora -- Ra'inu --
performing Masoretic acts and decisions. He went on to explain that
though others were greater Talmidim of Moshe than Yehoshua, Yehoshua
was the one who was chosen to be the next link in the Mesora because he
was not just a good student of Torah, but because he did Shimush under
Moshe, and never left his side. In other words, his was not just Kibalnu
MeRoboseinu, but also Ra'inu and that is a qualitatively better version
of the next Baal HaMesora.

One has to have kavanaas haperush when one says boruch shaim kavod malchuso
lolam vaaed

 

How do you translate it. What does the word shaim mean.

 

R jaeger in guidelines says - shaim here means revelation, and boruch means
increase.

 

Therefore not 'blessed is the name of His glorious kingdom forever and ever'
(artscroll)

 

but the correct translation is  - May the revelation of the glory of his
kingdom be increased forever.

 

His source is olas tamid (which I don't have), and iyun tefilah (which I
looked up and I cant find this mentioned)

 

Is this the kavanah that you are all having when you say krias shma?

 

mc

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On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 09:48:04AM -0500, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote:
: R jaeger in guidelines says - shaim here means revelation, and boruch means
: increase.
...
: but the correct translation is  - May the revelation of the glory of his
: kingdom be increased forever.

I am vague enough on the translation of the English word "blessed" that
translating "barukh" for "blessed" is trading one unknown for a bigger
one.

As for my own kavanah (when I stop to have one):
May the public perception (or: reputation)
of the significance (or: importance)
of His rule-by-public-acclimation
be increased eternally without stop.

Explanation:

Sheim is name, which would be how others perceive something. Hashem's
sheim is thus how He seems to people, which could be reputation and/or
perception.

Kavod shares spelling with kaveid, heaviness. (We'll discuss livers some
other time.) And thus we give honor to significant "weighty" matters.
Like massive things, we don't trivially push them around. And so I think
of kavod as honor more in terms of significant and important than glory.

Ein melekh belo am -- unlike a mosheil, what makes a melekh a melekh
is the acceptance of the governed. The Gra has a whole piece on Melekh
vs Mosheil and "umosheil bagoyim", until the day when "vehayah Hashem
leMelekh". "Malkhusekha malkhus kol olamim umemshaletekha bekhol dor
vador."

Notice in that last pasuq, malkhus is framed in terms of "kol olamim",
and here it's "le'olam va'ed".

Le'olam -- for as long as there's an olam.

Va'ad -- note the shoresh of "ad", until the missing end.

There is another kind of Eternity. Hashem Himself is lemaalah min hazman.
Not eternal in the sense of existing for an infinite amount of time, but
in the sense that the concept of time doesn't apply. However, His Sheim
is a product of us relating to Him, and thus within time -- as long as
there is an "am" for Hashem to be Melekh of.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
mi...@aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar

On 21/12/18 9:48 am, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote:
> One has to have kavanaas haperush when one says boruch shaim kavod 
> malchuso lolam vaaed
> 
> How do you translate it. What does the word shaim mean.
> 
> R jaeger in guidelines says - shaim here means revelation, and boruch 
> means increase.

I don't think this is perush hamilim. It's an additional facet that can 
add to the value of kavana, but is not required.

Another facet is that "baruch" can mean to extend, as in "hamavrich es 
hagefen", so a bracha represents bring the shefa from the higher worlds 
to this one.  An important thought, but one who doesn't have it in mind, 
or is even entirely unaware of it, has still said shma properly.

Also, sheim is not *just* how others see one; ones name is connected 
directly to ones essence, as we see from the fact that when someone has 
fainted we use their name to call them back.  But it is mostly used for 
others, just as malchus is how one relates to others, i.e. dibbur, 
shechina, reflecting what is going on inside one to the outside world, 
and yet it remains one of the essential attributes of a personality, and 
thus it is also one of the sefiros which those attributes reflect.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 05:43:37AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: From a write-up on borer and peelers:
: 
: > "peelers for peels that are generally eaten with the fruit," (are
: > "viewed as a sophisticated knife")[me- and thus not borer]
: 
: 1.which requires definition of how we determine "generally" (wo, essex
: county, us, world...............)

I could understand why the peel normally being eaten might mitigate
boreir, as there is no pesoles. But how does it change the status of
the peeler?

In any case, the AhS (OC 391:22, but the discussion starts at se'if
19 <https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.319.19>)
only talks about peeling lots of (harbeih) garlic or onions, where he
accepts the fact that it is boreier, despite being confused about how it
even caqn be borer. There is a clear gemara (Beitza 13b) that says that
Ravs and Rav Chiyya's wives would peel barley for them on Shabbos. And
the AhS wants to know why garlic or onion would be any different.

He therefore concludes that the issur isn't peeling, but the separating
of the peels once they're mixed into in the heap. He explains the BY's
source Y-mi accordingly.

I should point out that when I was a child, no one I knew identified
peeling as a form of boreir. Seems it may have been beshitah, and not
ignorance.

The AhS also talks (se'if 9) about non-mixtures, items that are nir'im
la'ayin, like clothes, keilim and books. I do not know what he means by
keilim, picking out forks from a jumble in the drawer?

I bring this up because this issue was also something I didn't hear
of until YU.

Seems to me boreir grew a lot when the MB became "poseiq acharon" for
all y'all.

(Minus Sepharadim, of course, who limit boreir to literal okhel, IIUC.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach


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