Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 118

Fri, 12 Oct 2018

• 1. Re: Longevity of Minhag haMakom (Zev Sero)
• 2. Minyan Choices (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Teaching Torah to Women (Professor L. Levine)
• 4. Eishes Yefas Toar and Pruzbul (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: The Shape of the Tavah (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: The Shape of the Tavah (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Handicapped Accessibility in Jerusalem (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Minyan Choices (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Geshem or Gashem?! (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: The Shape of the Tavah (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Minyan Choices (Rich, Joel)

On 11/10/18 04:20, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> But does he even address the question of what right the SA, or his whole
>> Sefardi community, had to set minhag EY, or the minhag of all the other
>> countries they colonised after gerush Sefard, when there were existing
>> communities with contrary minhagim?  What argument works for them and
>> not for the subsequent Ashkenazi mass immigrants?
> 
> The argument is that when the sefardim came there was no established 
> community in EY due to the crusades etc. So they could establish a new 
> minhag. However, when later the Ashkenazim came there was a 
> sefardi?community

But this isn't the case.  After the crusades destroyed the original EY 
community with its minhagim, a new community was established by olim, 
who brought their mihagim with them from chu"l, and by the time the 
grushei Sefarad arrived there was already an established community.  And 
what about the rest of the Mediterranean, where there were 
thousand-year-old communities?  Leshitaso shouldn't the Sefardim who 
settled in each of those countries have adopted the local mihagim?

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

If you were in a situation where you could only pray with a minyan once
that day (Shacharit or mincha-assume a non-Torah reading day), which would
you choose? Why? Would your answer be the same if it were an ongoing
situation?
KT
Joel Rich

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Although throughout the ages there were Jewish women
who were learned and revered1 the concept of formal
education for women is barely a century old.2 Before this
time, they would learn whatever was necessary from their
parents.3 Girls generally did not go out of the home, and were
often illiterate.4 The modern school system teaches many
subjects to the girls, including Chumash, Halachah, Navi and
Mishnah. Some even teach Gemara.5 Girls learn Chumash
in depth with Ramban, and study more halachah than boys
in yeshivah.6 The Bais Yaakov movement was spearheaded
by Sarah Schenirer with just twenty-five girls in 1917,7 as a
reaction to many factors8 which had changed the status quo.9
Since then, hundreds of girls? schools have been created.

For more on this topic

Click here to download "Teaching Torah to Women"<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcts.vresp.com%2Fc%2F%3FHalachicallySpeaking%2F1b621a55f3%2F9f413a18fc%2F4484ea3834%2Futm_content%3DProf.%26utm_source%3DVerticalResponse%26utm_medium%3DEmail%26utm_term%3DClick%2520here%2520to%2520download%2520%2522Teaching%2520Torah%2520to%2520Women%2522%26utm_campaign%3DTeaching%2520Torah%2520to%2520Women&;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7C086b489f7edc447f2dbc08d62f79c890%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636748597445763045&sdata=Z3rsYiQzfxTFiKY9LMmprYFMu%2BjoIZ0ez9XNpLYK0Yo%3D&reserved=0>

For information about the history of the Bais Yaakov movement see

<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcts.vresp.com%2Fc%2F%3FHalachicallySpeaking%2F1b621a55f3%2F9f413a18fc%2F4484ea3834%2Futm_content%3DProf.%26utm_source%3DVerticalResponse%26utm_medium%3DEmail%26utm_term%3DClick%2520here%2520to%2520download%2520%2522Teaching%2520Torah%2520to%2520Women%2522%26utm_campaign%3DTeaching%2520Torah%2520to%2520Women&;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7C086b489f7edc447f2dbc08d62f79c890%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636748597445763045&sdata=Z3rsYiQzfxTFiKY9LMmprYFMu%2BjoIZ0ez9XNpLYK0Yo%3D&reserved=0><https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcts.vresp.com%2Fc%2F%3FHalachicallySpeaking%2F1b621a55f3%2F9f413a18fc%2F4484ea3834%2Futm_content%3DProf.%26utm_source%3DVerticalResponse%26utm_medium%3DEmail%26utm_term%3DClick%2520here%2520to%2520download%2520%2522Teaching%2520Torah%2520to%2520Women%2522%26utm_campaign%3DTeaching%2520Torah%2520to%2520Women&;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7C086b489f7
 edc447f2dbc08d62f79c890%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636748597445763045&sdata=Z3rsYiQzfxTFiKY9LMmprYFMu%2BjoIZ0ez9XNpLYK0Yo%3D&reserved=0>https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/bais_yaakov/beth_jacob_movement_poland.pdf

Note the curriculum of the Bais Yaakov Seminary in Krakow starting on page 77.  In particular,

Five Books of Moses: This included the study of the
Five Books of Moses in the original and in its entirety
with the commentary of Rashi and Rabbi Samuel
Raphael Hirsch.

and

German: Instruction in the correct oral and written
use of the language. The goal of this course was to
provide the teachers with the ability to read by
themselves the important religious literature of
Hirsch and others which were written in the German
language, as well as selected classical works such
as the poetry of Schiller, Goethe, Nathan the Wise
by Lessing, Zweig, and Beer-Hoffman.

Times have indeed changed,  have they not!

YL

study

times.
of
the
Five
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I got to the Arukh haShulchan's discussion of Chazal changing the entire
definition of qinyan. MideOraisa, paying would be the qinyan. But Chazal
were afraid that sellers wouldn't properly safeguard the item between
payment and handing it over to the buyer. After all, any loss or damage
is the buyers, ownership was already transfered. So, chazal made various
qinyanim that demonstrate the buyer taking the item.

The Torah gives the halakhah. Chazal realize that given the low state of
the people around them, the halakhah would have cons that outweigh the
pros. So, they change it.

Reminds me of pruzbul or heter isqa, cases where in order to help
someone who needs a loan get one, we allow suboptimal loan arrangements.

In each case, a different validation for doing so:
- Qinyan in general allows custom and agreement by both parties override
the default law.

- Similarly heter isqa was always technically allowed; our rabbanim just
standardized a means of utilizing this alternative financial arrangement.

- Pruzbul is violating shemittah derabbanan. So, while the gemara requires
the motive of helpoing the poor get loans to even violate the ke'ein
deOraisa, tHillel didn't rewrite Torah.

But my point is, in all three cases the Torah addresses people on a higher
plane than the people Chazal encountered in reality. The deOraisa didn't
accomodate human frailty. (And in the case of shemitas kesafim, if the
deOraisa applied, halakhah still wouldn't have an accomodation.)

And yet, eishes yefas Torah -- lo dibera Torah ela keneged YhR. Something
TSBP (and natural morality) tells us is immoral is not prohibited by
the din. Human limitations are taken into account, and the Torah instead
tries to channel the urge and limit the damage.

So why the difference in approach? Why wasn't ribis permitted keneged YhR,
or lending past shemittah, or qinyan deOraisa be when the buyer takes
posession of the merchandise, rather than the seller takes the money?
Again, all for the sake of keneged YhR?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What we do for ourselves dies with us.
mi...@aishdas.org        What we do for others and the world,
http://www.aishdas.org   remains and is immortal.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Albert Pine

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 03:58:19PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: The following is from RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 6:14
:> In any event, a tavah is shaped like a
:> box or chest, unlike a boat. It is wide at the bottom, tapering toward
:> the top, the reverse of the shape of a boat; for it is not designed to cut
:> through the water, but to be borne on the surface of the water.

: Clearly the ark that was built and is shown at https://arkencounter.com/
: has no relationship to the one Noach built.

True; it's just the reconstruction of some Xians, given the text and
the assumption that it was build not to capsize.

RSRH's teivah is his own reconstruction. He could be wrong too.

Borne on the surface of the water means all the weight is above the water,
including the center of gravity. As it bobs on the water, the fulcrum is
where the bottom hits the water. When the center of gravity is above the
fulcrum, balance is difficult. Just compare keeping a broom veticle when
you hang the end of the handle between two fingers with the broom below
with keeping it balanced standing on your palm. It would be another neis
for Noach et al not to have capsized.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

At 03:01 PM 10/11/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>RSRH's teivah is his own reconstruction. He could be wrong too.

Again read RSRH's commentary and you will see how he arrives at his 
conclusion.
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On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:13:44PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Orach Chayim 150:2 (it seems to me) teaches the halacha that - all else
: being equal - the town's shul should be built at the highest point in town.
: I can certainly see the kavod and prestige that would result from such a
: location, but wouldn't this also make it difficult for the weak and
: elderly? I can't imagine that this halacha was speaking only to communities
: of young folks.

RJR suggests that the advantage to the tzibbur would indeed trump the
disadvantage for the individual.  On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 1:14pm UCT,
he wrote:
: ...                                                                Western
: liberal thought is very focused on the individual, AIUI traditional Jewish
: thought is more on the klal with each individual playing their role
: and being fulfilled with that role no matter what it be...

The comment RAM was replying to (I think) was my discussion of the
advantage to the majority of the community of being pushed to think
about those who need more help.

IOW, not accessible shuls for the sake of those who need accessibility,
but for the sake of those who need practive remembering as they pursue
qedushah they they must consider others.

(Especially leshitas RSShkop, where qedushah is /defined/ as commitment
"leheitiv im hazulas". Not exclusively so.)

I think it's simply that the hill wasn't thought of as a major
inconvenience. And perhaps an obstacle likely to keep someone from
coming wouldn't be a proper place for your elevated shul.

Or, possibly that yes, this halakhah was only speaking "when all else is
equal".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 01:10:16PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: If you were in a situation where you could only pray with a minyan
: once that day (Shacharit or mincha-assume a non-Torah reading day),
: which would you choose? Why? Would your answer be the same if it were
: an ongoing situation?

I hope you are really what I would choose, and not what I should choose.
Because lehalakhah, Qdushah and the greater number of Qaddeishim give
priority to Shacharis. Not to mention there being no heter in the morning
to compromise the mitzvah at hand for plans of a later mitzvah.

But what I would prefer is minchah, in a heartbeat. Shacharis has all
that lead in. By the time we get to Shema and Shemoneh Esrei, I can
have kavanah. Minchah -- minyan allows for a greater change of context.
Here I am coming from the workplace, the only prep is Ashrei (or an
abbreviated Qorbanos and Ashrei). I need the minyan to have any likelihood
of feeling anything.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sat, Oct 06, 2018 at 09:38:57PM +0300, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
: Is there any nusah that says "shelo `asani eved" and/or "mechin mitz`adei
: gever" in birchot hashahar?

I believe Ashkenaz used to. Manuscript research is more RSM's thing

But look at the Kaf haChaim OC 46 s"q 18. So I know they did in 19th
cent Baghdad. However, ROY is recorses in Qol Torah vol V pg 20 as
promoting gaver and aved. But in the cases we started with -- gefen
and geshem.

Also, Rav Pa'alim vol II, OC #25.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

At 03:01 PM 10/11/2018, Micha Berger wrote:


>RSRH's teivah is his own reconstruction. He could be wrong too.
>
>Borne on the surface of the water means all the weight is above the water,
>including the center of gravity. As it bobs on the water, the fulcrum is
>where the bottom hits the water. When the center of gravity is above the
>fulcrum, balance is difficult. Just compare keeping a broom veticle when
>you hang the end of the handle between two fingers with the broom below
>with keeping it balanced standing on your palm. It would be another neis
>for Noach et al not to have capsized.


First of all,  the entire saving of Noach, his family, and the 
animals is a miracle.  It is not, IMO, something that would happen in 
the "natural" course of events.  Hence,  the ark could indeed have 
been shaped the way RSRH asserts and stayed afloat,  because HaShem 
kept it afloat.

Also,  we know that the nature of the world was different before the 
flood than it is today. IIRC, there are midrashim that say that there 
were no seasons as we have today and that vegetation grew at a much 
faster rate. In short, climatic conditions were very different before 
the flood than after it.

In light of this,  who says that the laws of physics before the flood 
were the same as they are today?  If they were different before the 
flood,  then your physics analysis does not hold water! >:-}  ( have 
no basis for asserting that the laws of physics  were different 
before the flood,  but it is possible in light of the different 
climatic conditions.)

YL
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[Micha:]
> I hope you are really what I would choose, and not what I should choose.
> Because lehalakhah, Qdushah and the greater number of Qaddeishim give
> priority to Shacharis. Not to mention there being no heter in the morning
> to compromise the mitzvah at hand for plans of a later mitzvah.

> But what I would prefer is minchah, in a heartbeat. Shacharis has all
> that lead in. By the time we get to Shema and Shemoneh Esrei, I can
> have kavanah. Minchah -- minyan allows for a greater change of context.
> Here I am coming from the workplace, the only prep is Ashrei (or an
> abbreviated Qorbanos and Ashrei). I need the minyan to have any likelihood
> of feeling

The question of relative priorities is always complex. I don't think
this question has an algorithmic response Other than if you say all
other things are equal, Which of course they never are.

Kt
Joel Rich


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