Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 114

Fri, 05 Oct 2018

• 1. Re: Geshem or Gashem?! (Mandel, Seth)
• 2. Re: Geshem or Gashem?! (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Geshem or Gashem?! (D Rubin)
• 4. When Sefardi and Ashkenazim Meet (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: birchas cohanim on chol hamoed in chutz la'aretz (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Geshem or Gashem?! (Mandel, Seth)
• 7. Re: Handicapped Accessibility in Jerusalem (Rich, Joel)

From: Professor L. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2018 8:01 AM

From  https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4903

>> On Shemini Atzeres, as per the Mishna's instruction...

With all due respect for the many great g'dolim who weighed in on this
issue and came up with explanations about what the proper pronunciation
should be, they came late in the game, after grammarians had already
started changing the pronunciation.

The fact is that all ancient vocalized mss. (from the time of the
rishonim) have geshem. All that I have ever seen do, whether S'farad,
Ashkenaz, Italian, or Teimani. There are hundreds. And so there can be
no reasonable argument about what the Rishonim said.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel

On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 12:01:40PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: From  https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/4903

I have yet to see a discussion that starts at the beginning. Bemechilas
kevod everyone who holds "gashem", and who am I to argue against the Gra,
the Netziv, the CC, R' Aharon Kotler, R YS Elyashiv, or Rav Moshe?

But this article gets closer, by mentioning Sepharadim and the Levushei
Mordekhai.

Yes, in the Leshon haQodesh of the Tanakh, "gashem" is the correct pausal
form. And, if one davens in the language of the Tanakh, then "geshem" vs
"gashem" boils down to asking whether this is one item in a long list,
or a phrase with a significant pause (esnachta or sof-pasuq, or in sifrei
Eme"s, oleh veyoreid).

The reason why Sepharadim end the berakhah on wine with "gefen" is because
they more often daven in Chazal's Hebrew, rather than the Tanakh's. And
Mishnaic Hebrew doesn't have pausal forms.

On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 12:28:54PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote:
:            they came late in the game, after grammarians had already
: started changing the pronunciation.

: The fact is that all ancient vocalized mss. (from the time of the
: rishonim) have geshem. All that I have ever seen do, whether S'farad,
: Ashkenaz, Italian, or Teimani. There are hundreds. And so there can be
: no reasonable argument about what the Rishonim said.

But this doesn't prove that our mesorah was necessarily that there was a
significan pause after "umorid hagashem". Yes, the Teimanim say "Jafen"
on wine, and yet still say "geshem" here with a segol. Their mesorah is
that is is not a pause.

But for Ashkenazim, those older manuscripts do not prove whether or
not there is a pause, since the diqduq they used would have "geshem"
either way.

As for Nusach haAri, Lubavitch's Alter Rebbe liked R Wolf Heidenheim's
(Ravah's) siddur and diqduq, so his Nusach Ari was one of the early
adopters of these language innovations.

Interestingly, this means that most Ashkneazim today are davening
in a nusach that is primarily a haskalisher attempt to reconstruct an
authentic nusach, that is based on some ahistorical assumptions of
what "authentic" was, to boot.

And R/Dr Mandel is the only person I know who unwound that shift
from Mishaic to Biblical Hebrew across all of davening. Unless you're
willing to take that drastic step ("sabe'einu mituvakh, vesamcheinu
biyshu'asakh"), saying "geshem" when most of your Hebrew is Mishnaic
could something different than it did in those manuscripts, depending
if a pause was intended. And, depending on whether the phrase might
even be an exception to the usual rules of diqduq. (See R Spitz's
article.) We simply can't know.

R' Spitz concludes:
   Postscript: This is just one of a number of places where the majority
   consensus of Poskim maintain that dikduk decides the proper reading
   of tefillos.[30] Although many Gedolim through the ages spoke
   about dikduk's importance,[31] unfortunately its study at present
   is much neglected. In the words of Rabbi Yisroel Reisman in his
   excellent book Pathways of the Prophets:[32] "The myth of the lack
   of importance of (at least) a minimal amount of knowledge of dikduk
   must be dispelled. This is an area where a small amount of time and
   effort go a long way. Let's do it!"

But to some up this post, we also need to know *which* diqduq.

To provide the footnotes for that last quote:

   [30] See at length Rabbi Yisroel Reisman's Pathways of the Prophets,
   "Rules of Dikduk" starting on pg. 312.

   [31] For example see the Rambam's Peirush HaMishnayos (Avos Ch. 2,
   1), Beis Yosef (Orach Chaim 142, 1), Yesod V'Shoresh HaAvodah (Ch. 5,
   3), Shu"t Chavos Yair (124), Shu"t Sheilas Ya'avetz (vol. 1, 10),
   and Bnei Yisaschar (Introduction to Igra D'Kallah and Mayon Ganim 13,
   6), all cited in the aforementioned chapter.

   [32] Pathways of the Prophets (pg. 325).

   L'iluy Nishmas the Rosh HaYeshiva - Rav Chonoh Menachem Mendel ben
   R' Yechezkel Shraga, Rav Yaakov Yeshaya ben R' Boruch Yehuda, and
   l'zchus for Shira Yaffa bas Rochel Miriam and her children for a
   yeshua teikef u'miyad!

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas haOlam

An interesting discussion on this is given here by Dr Shnayer Lehman
https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm
YUTorah Online
Online study of the Jewish holidays, Parsha, Halakha and Talmud by
Yeshiva University
www.yutorah.org

Rabbi Eli Mansour discusses the convergence of Sefardi and Ashkenazi 
traditions in contemporary Israel.


Please see the video at 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2FWT2Hjq&;amp;data=02%7C01%7Cllevine%40stevens.edu%7C97625655127d4ae2115708d62aad6b61%7C8d1a69ec03b54345ae21dad112f5fb4f%7C0%7C0%7C636743321668910329&sdata=qGd8srOfQuC0kDFzrWfAVXfNbcQiB%2BvvgPyGWe3HehQ%3D&reserved=0


YL



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> 
> I've never seen it nor heard of it (until now), but I can easily
> imagine a reason behind it: The main (only?) reason to connect Birkas
> Kohanim with Yom Tov is the level of simcha that we do have on yom tov
> but not at other times. (Rama 128:44) According to Shulchan Aruch
> Harav 529:6, the mitzva of Simchas Yom Tov applies equally on Yom Tov
> and on Chol Hamoed. Thus, I can see how one might conclude that the
> reasons for Birkas Kohanim are equally strong on Yom Tov and on Chol
> Hamoed.
> 
> Akiva Miller
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> But do they duchen at shacharit on yom tov?
Kt
Joel rich 
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From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2018 10:37 AM
...
> Yes, in the Leshon haQodesh of the Tanakh, "gashem" is the correct pausal
> form. And, if one davens in the language of the Tanakh, then "geshem" vs
> "gashem" boils down to asking whether this is one item in a long list,
> or a phrase with a significant pause (esnachta or sof-pasuq, or in sifrei
> Eme"s, oleh veyoreid).

> The reason why Sepharadim end the berakhah on wine with "gefen" is because
> they more often daven in Chazal's Hebrew, rather than the Tanakh's. And
> Mishnaic Hebrew doesn't have pausal forms.
...

A slight correction to R Micha's post: as far as we can tell, Chazal
Hebrew DID have pausal forms. But they were not based on trop, of course,
nor even on on the end of a sentence. They are used consistently in a
case of parellismus membrorum in L'shon Chazal, and I am pretty sure in
some other situations as well, according to the evidence from the oldest
mss. with vocalization, such as the famous Kaufmann ms. of the Mishnah.

But in this case I do not have to send people to look at mss. We have
at least one example in the davening, where all traditions agree that
"pausal" forms are used, even though it is not the end of a phrase,
and there is no difference between Ashkenaz, S'farad, Italy, or Teiman,
in the first b'rokho before QS in the morning:

??? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ?? ?? ???????

...? ?????? ????? ???????? ??????, ?? ??? ????? ???? ??????

[For those in digest text mode and therefore can't see the Hebrew,
this quote begins "LaKeil Barukh, ne'imos..." -micha]

To the best of my knowledge, all old nuskah'ot have "yittenu."

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union

Voice (212) 613-8330     Fax (212) 613-0718     e-mail mand...@ou.org

Orach Chayim 150:2 (it seems to me) teaches the halacha that - all else
being equal - the town's shul should be built at the highest point in town.
I can certainly see the kavod and prestige that would result from such a
location, but wouldn't this also make it difficult for the weak and
elderly? I can't imagine that this halacha was speaking only to communities
of young folks.

At face value, this halacha seems to be teaching that the accessibility
needs of the minority are less important than the impression that the
edifice would make upon the majority. Can this really be?

I----------------------------------
IMHO Thomas Kuhn?s thoughts on paradigm shift are applicable here.  Western
liberal thought is very focused on the individual, AIUI traditional Jewish
thought is more on the klal with each individual playing their role and
being fulfilled with that role no matter what it be (e.g. I might like to
do the avodah but I?m not a cohain)  So yes, it could really be (but I?m
not qualified to say it is)
KT
Joel Rich
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