Volume 36: Number 112
Thu, 04 Oct 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 14:13:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] V'zos Hab'racha
On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 12:11:24PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: The gemara, masechta Makkos brings a proof that there
: "Torah tziva lanu Moshe."
: This is how it is explained: Only 2 commandments were
: directly heard from God which were "I am the Lord Your God Who
: brought you out of the land of Egypt" and "Thou shalt have no other
: gods before Me."
: After that all of the other mitzvot were heard by the people through Moshe.
: So the gematria of Torah is 611 (which they heard through Moshe) and
: the only 2 heard directly from God comprise the 613. The gemara goes on to
: explain that the first mitzvah ("I am the Lord your God") encompasses all of the
: 248 positive mitzvot and the second mitzvah ("Thou shalt have no
: other gods") encompasses all of the 365 negative mitzvos.
The gemara is commenting on the fact that the first two diberos are
written in the first person (Anokhi Hashem ... al Panai) whereas the
others are in the third person.
Thus the medrash that the people couldn't handle the direct revalation
from G-d and at the end of the 2nd diberah begged Moshe to relay it
to them.
But I don't see anything in the gemara about the first diberah including
all the mitzvos asei, and the second all the lavin.
And, according to the Rambam, the first diberah isn't one of the 613. So
go figure out how /he/ understands the idea that 2 were not taught via
Moshe.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger The mind is a wonderful organ
mi...@aishdas.org for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 14:18:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Neurological evidence for the existence of
On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 09:52:29PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: R' Micha Berger wrote (in a fascinating post):
:> Souls come in four forms -- domeim, tzomeiach, chai and medaber.
: It makes sense to use the English word "soul", so that we don't get bogged
: down in the distinction between nefesh and neshama, for example. That said,
: can you tell me something about the sort of soul that a domeim or tzomeiach
: has?
A tzomeiach has the power to grow and to procreate. It is alive, so it
is easy to see how it has some sort of soul.
A domeim is harder. One has to get into tzurah vechomer, and the
relationship between nefesh and tzurah. Tzurah isn't just a thing's shape
and other propherties, it also is its function. A shapeless piece of
metal has no function; give it a tzurah and it could be part of a chair
or a challah knife.
Also, since everything physical has a metaphysical source, the continuing
existence of rock as a rock requires some spiritual meta-rock, its soul.
This concept is discussed by both philosphers (Rambam, lehavdil Aristo)
and anti-Scholasticists (like the Kuzari, who adds Yisrael as a 5th type
of soul). An idea the Rambam and Mequbalim discuss is worth sinking your
teeth into.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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Message: 3
From: M Cohen
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 11:32:16 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] birchas cohanim on chol hamoed in chutz la'aretz
Has anyone heard of a ashkanz minhag to do birchas cohanim on chol hamoed in
chutz la'aretz? (not sepharadim)
I was surprised to see it done.
Sources?
Thanks, mordechai cohen
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 01:30:47 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] V'zos Hab'racha
On 30/09/18 14:13, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> And, according to the Rambam, the first diberah isn't one of the 613.
I think you meant the Ramban.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 5
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 09:18:08 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] V'zos Hab'racha
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 3:23 AM Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
And, according to the Rambam, the first diberah isn't one of the 613. So
> go figure out how /he/ understands the idea that 2 were not taught via
> Moshe.
>
According to the Rambam, the first diber _is_ one of the 613, and this
gemara is his proof text -- see Sefer Hamitzvot Mitzvot Ase #1. Assuming
that "Rambam" is a typo for "Ramban", see his hassaga on the Sefer
Hamitzvot. Ramban holds that the second diber includes two of the 613
(don't make idols; don't worship them).
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Message: 6
From: D Rubin
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 07:23:19 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah & a Lost Minhag of the Gra
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 09:43:14 +0000
From: "Professor L. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
> From Simchas Torah & a Lost Minhag of the Gra
...
>> In 1921 the great bibliographer (and much more) Yitzchak Rivkind
>> .... On Simchas Torah they would open the Aron Kodesh
>> when saying Aleinu, both at night and during the day, and while singing
>> the Niggun of Mussaf of Yom Kippur would bow on the floor exactly like
>> we do on Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur. When he asked for the source of
>> this Minhag he was told it comes from the Gra...
Interesting.
The Robshitse Rov had a similar practice, falling on his face during
the hakofos.
(It is reported that one year, after bowing during hakofos [the
first time?], he commented that only he and his son Yaakov [of Melits]
understand the secret. After Yom Tov, it became known that R' Yaakov too
had participated in this rite.) (Another story tells of how the grandson
of the Kosnitse Maggid, R' Elo'ozor, spoke lightly of this minhag [made
fun?] to the Robshite Rov's son, R' Eliezer of Dzikhov, whereupon R'
Eliezer protested vehemently, saying all his father's customs have a very
high source. On his return, R' Elozor's wagon tipped and he was thrown
out of his carriage, falling, as we do on Yom Kippur, on his face. He
saw this as a retribution for having spoken lightly of the minhag.)
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Message: 7
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 12:16:33 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Simchas Torah & a Lost Minhag of the Gra
At 01:17 PM 9/30/2018, R. Zalman Alpert wrote:
>The kluiz of the GRaA in Vilna was essentially the only place in Vilna
>and all of Lithuania that followed minhage HAgra to the kotzo shel yud
>Chaim Grade a lost talmid of the Chazon Ish and a Vilna native mentions
>this in his wonderful novels about shil life in Vilna
>
>Because the Jslm settlement in early 19th cen was started by disciples
>of the GRAthe Rivlins,etc these minhogim becamr and remain the standard
>for at least the yishuv hayoshen of Jslm and beyond that group
>
>And thats how we know these customs in realism rather than from seforim
>The Litthuanian yrshivas did not follow these customs nor did kohol,and
>certainly not the chassidim of Lithuania who after WwI played an impt
>role in Jew rel life in greater lita including Vilna
My understanding is that the GRA never meant for his minhagim to be
practiced by the general public, but only by his disciples. Thus I
find it \ironic that his minhagim became widely accepted in EY and
are practiced by many there.
Why didn't those who returned to EY practice the minhagim of EY? For
example, why didn't they go back to the 3.5 year cycle of reading the Torah?
YL
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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:51:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah & a Lost Minhag of the Gra
On 03/10/18 12:16, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>
> Why didn't those who returned to EY practice the minhagim of EY? For
> example,? why didn't they go back to the 3.5 year cycle of reading the
> Torah?
Why should they have? Even if they were fully aware of the minhagim of
the previous community that used once upon a time to exist where they
now settled, why would they be bound by them? In what way were those
minhagim superior to their own? When Spanish-Portuguese Jews renewed
the Jewish presence in England should they have adopted the presumably
French minhagim that English Jews practiced between 1090 and 1290?
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 9
From: Rabbi
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 14:46:37 -0700
Subject: [Avodah] Longevity of Minhag haMakom (was: Simchas Torah & a
On October 3, 2018 9:16:33 AM PDT, "Prof. Levine via Avodah" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>My understanding is that the GRA never meant for his minhagim to be
>practiced by the general public, but only by his disciples. Thus I
>find it \ironic that his minhagim became widely accepted in EY and
>are practiced by many there.
>Why didn't those who returned to EY practice the minhagim of EY? For
>example, why didn't they go back to the 3.5 year cycle of reading the
>Torah?
It seems that, despite the simple Halacha, when a large exodus (when they
vastly outnumber the original community) of people land in a new country,
they keep their Minhag and drown out the old Minhag.
So Ashkenazim who landed in the US kept their minhagim from the Alter
Heim (and didn't become Sefardi), and when Sefardim who landed in the
Ottoman Empire after the expulsion stayed Sefardi and didn't adopt the
original Minhag.
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:32:20 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Longevity of Minhag haMakom (was: Simchas Torah & a
On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 12:16:33PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Why didn't those who returned to EY practice the minhagim of EY?
: For example, why didn't they go back to the 3.5 year cycle of reading
: the Torah?
While this is hard to picture, as there was no continuity between the EY
community of Minhag EY of Chazal's day and the current Yishuv, ROYosef does
make a similar point.
ROY believes that if an Ashkenazi makes aliyah, they really ought to
switch to Minhagei Sepharad. On the grounds that the SA set minhag EY.
He does later find heterimg for Ashkenazim to continue with their old
minhagim, but he does believe it's just that, a heter, and if an Ashkenazi
Israeli wished to switch, by all means they should do so.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger You are not a human being in search
mi...@aishdas.org of a spiritual experience. You are a
http://www.aishdas.org spiritual being immersed in a human
Fax: (270) 514-1507 experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
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Message: 11
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 22:42:28 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Longevity of Minhag haMakom (was: Simchas Torah
>
> It seems that, despite the simple Halacha, when a large exodus (when they
> vastly outnumber the original community) of people land in a new country,
> they keep their Minhag and drown out the old Minhag.
>
> So Ashkenazim who landed in the US kept their minhagim from the Alter
> Heim (and didn't become Sefardi), and when Sefardim who landed in the
> Ottoman Empire after the expulsion stayed Sefardi and didn't adopt the
> original Minhag.
> _______________________________________________
This is a description of the fact but not an explanation of why this was a
halachically acceptable result (ie where is this exception to the minhag
hamakom rule)
Kt
Joel
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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:54:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Longevity of Minhag haMakom
On 03/10/18 17:46, Rabbi via Avodah wrote:
> On October 3, 2018 9:16:33 AM PDT, "Prof. Levine via Avodah" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>> My understanding is that the GRA never meant for his minhagim to be
>> practiced by the general public, but only by his disciples. Thus I
>> find it \ironic that his minhagim became widely accepted in EY and
>> are practiced by many there.
>
>> Why didn't those who returned to EY practice the minhagim of EY? For
>> example, why didn't they go back to the 3.5 year cycle of reading the
>> Torah?
>
> It seems that, despite the simple Halacha, when a large exodus (when they
> vastly outnumber the original community) of people land in a new country,
> they keep their Minhag and drown out the old Minhag.
>
> So Ashkenazim who landed in the US kept their minhagim from the Alter
> Heim (and didn't become Sefardi), and when Sefardim who landed in the
> Ottoman Empire after the expulsion stayed Sefardi and didn't adopt the
> original Minhag.
That is a different issue, and one that was once controversial and that
one can still question. Here the issue is much simpler, because when
Jews moved back to EY there was no local community, and thus no local
minhag. That's why I cited the example of the S-P Jews settling in
England in the 17th century, and not that of the Ashkenazim who followed
them. Whether or not the Ashkenazim should have adopted S-P minhagim,
there's no question that the S-P were not required and had no reason to
adopt the (presumably French) minhagim of the medieval community.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 13
From: Rabbi
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 18:16:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah & a Lost Minhag of the Gra
Was there a Jewish community in Israel between the time of the Yerushalmi
and when "they" returned to Israel. Because if there was, each returnee
would have to adopt the Minhag Hamakom the moment he hit an inhabited city.
In contrast, there were no religious Jews left in England after the expulsion, so the newcomers can (and should) follow their old minhagim.
The same would presumably apply when Jews started coming back to Spain a few decades back, and unlike Moroccans in France a few decades before.
But, as I wrote before, it seems that the Minhag is to follow whatever
Minhagim you were used to, especially if you have enough landsmen to create
a breakaway community.
On October 3, 2018 2:51:19 PM PDT, Zev Sero via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>On 03/10/18 12:16, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>>
>> Why didn't those who returned to EY practice the minhagim of EY? For
>> example,? why didn't they go back to the 3.5 year cycle of reading
>the
>> Torah?
>
>Why should they have? Even if they were fully aware of the minhagim
>of
>the previous community that used once upon a time to exist where they
>now settled, why would they be bound by them? In what way were those
>
>minhagim superior to their own? When Spanish-Portuguese Jews renewed
>the Jewish presence in England should they have adopted the presumably
>French minhagim that English Jews practiced between 1090 and 1290?
>
>--
>Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
>z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you
>prosper
>_______________________________________________
>Avodah mailing list
>Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
>http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
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Message: 14
From: Rabbi
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:54:40 -0700
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Longevity of Minhag haMakom
On October 3, 2018 3:32:20 PM PDT, Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>ROY believes that if an Ashkenazi makes aliyah, they really ought to
>switch to Minhagei Sepharad. On the grounds that the SA set minhag EY.
>He does later find heterimg for Ashkenazim to continue with their old
>minhagim, but he does believe it's just that, a heter, and if an Ashkenazi
>Israeli wished to switch, by all means they should do so.
What does he hold about Sefardim moving to France or Germany (which had
a continuity - Germany going back well, at least a thousand years and
France, while it had a break, did have a religious Ashkenazi community
before and after the war).
On October 3, 2018 3:54:51 PM PDT, Zev Sero via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>o Here the issue is much simpler, because when
>Jews moved back to EY there was no local community, and thus no local
>minhag. That's why I cited the example of the S-P Jews settling in
>England in the 17th century, and not that of the Ashkenazim who followed
>them. Whether or not the Ashkenazim should have adopted S-P minhagim,
>there's no question that the S-P were not required and had no reason to
>adopt the (presumably French) minhagim of the medieval community.
When was there no Jewish community in Israel? I was under the impression
that while the Sanhedrin ceased, and Yeshivas presumably ceased, there
was always a Jewish community there. Especially by the early Gaonim,
Israel was no longer under Roman rule anyways.
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Message: 15
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:19:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Longevity of Minhag haMakom
When was there no Jewish community in Israel? I was under the impression
that while the Sanhedrin ceased, and Yeshivas presumably ceased, there
was always a Jewish community there. Especially by the early Gaonim,
Israel was no longer under Roman rule anyways.
_______________________________________________
The gemara (Bava Metziah 83b) discusses what hours a worker gets paid for
based on the Torah "standard." The gemara queries why not just find out
what local practice is? The first answer is it's a case of a new city which
was nkutai. Rashi defines nkutai as meaning its residents came from
multiple other cities, with multiple other practices. Perhaps this is a
model for minhag?
New Question: In establishing new city practices, should there be a
preference for the Torah "standard" or did the Torah only set a standard
for default situations but really doesn't see it as a paradigm or care what
we do?
KT
Joel Rich
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