Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 110

Wed, 26 Sep 2018

• 1. How Many Days of Yom Tov Should One Observe in Israel? (Professor L. Levine)
• 2. Re: How Many Days of Yom Tov Should One Observe in Israel? (Rabbi)
• 3. mixed prayers at the Kotel (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: How Many Days of Yom Tov Should One Observe in Israel? (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: Nusach Ashkenaz in the Center of Chasidic Davening: The Interesting Cases of Belz, Sanz, and Berdichev (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Neurological evidence for the existence of neshamos (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Re: How to put together a Lulav According to Chabad Custom (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: How Many Days of Yom Tov Should One Observe in Israel? (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: How Many Days of Yom Tov Should One Observe in Israel? (Simon Montagu)
• 10. Re: How Many Days of Yom Tov Should One Observe in Israel? (allan.en...@gmail.com)
• 11. Re: Ha'azinu (David Riceman)
• 12. Re: Nusach Ashkenaz in the Center of Chasidic Davening: The Interesting Cases of Belz, Sanz, and Berdichev (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: How Many Days of Yom Tov Should One Observe in Israel? (Rabbi)
• 14. Re: Nusach Ashkenaz in the Center of Chasidic Davening: The Interesting Cases of Belz, Sanz, and Berdichev (Ben Waxman)

Please see the article at


https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/how_many_days_of_yom_tov_jp.pdf


which is from this week's Jewish Press.


Note what Rav Hershel Schacter says about his practice to "keep  two and
half days when in EY.  Note also that he says, "The Rogatchover answered,
'You're right, you should wear tefillen.'''  (on Yom Tov Sheni in chutz
l'aretz).


YL

Do
you

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While the Mahadura Basra of the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch paskins like
R' Yaakov Emdin (although for a different reason) and, as a result, so does
the Shaar HaKollel, the Previous (as well as the current) Lubavitcher Rebbe
said that one shouldn't Paskin like the Mahadura Basra and R' Yaakov Emdin.

Practically, there is no consensus Psak among Lubavitch Rabbonim, and different Rabbonim Paskin differently. 

On September 23, 2018 9:06:03 AM PDT, "Professor L. Levine via Avodah" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>Please see the article at
>
>
>https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/how_many_days_of_yom_tov_jp.pdf
>
>
>which is from this week's Jewish Press.
>
>
>Note what Rav Hershel Schacter says about his practice to "keep  two
>and half days when in EY.  Note also that he says, "The Rogatchover
>answered, 'You're right, you should wear tefillen.'''  (on Yom Tov
>Sheni in chutz l'aretz).
>
>
>YL
>
>Do
>you
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At 02:08 PM 9/23/2018, M. Cohen wrote:

>Also, this is not a blanket prohibition, but is a preference when possible
>(as per the permission for travelers).
>Bc of the number of people in this case, there is no alternative.
>

But there is a viable alternative.  A dome covering could be built 
over the Kosel plaza as has been done in certain athletic fields.. It 
could be made of a transparent material so the sun and stars could be seen.

See https://www.thefarleygroup.com/soccer-domes.htm

YL


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Something doesn't register about the RYBS story - Shavout first day can 
be on? Friday night or Saturday night, it can't fall on Thursday night.
Ben

There is a hava mina in this statement that the Maggid was unauthorized 
to make these changes, a claim which I find dubious.
Ben

On 9/20/2018 11:04 PM, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
 > was apparently a later development in the movement, said to be from 
the time of the Maggid of Mezrich, rather than from R. Israel Baal Shem 
Tov, who is called its founder.

R' Micha Berger wrote (in a fascinating post):

<<< Souls come in four forms -- domeim, tzomeiach,
chai and medaber. >>>

It makes sense to use the English word "soul", so that we don't get bogged
down in the distinction between nefesh and neshama, for example. That said,
can you tell me something about the sort of soul that a domeim or tzomeiach
has?

Akiva Miller
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On 21/09/18 16:08, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:

> And no explanation why the haqpadah about putting the knot on the
> green side.

I've never heard of such a thing before; I've been looking since then 
for any mention of it and haven't found one.  So this may be his own thing.


> More interesting to me was the surrounding of the aravos with hadasim. 

The arrangement of one arava on each side, and the hadasim one on each 
side and one in the middle is cited by Magen Avraham as the view of the 
AriZal.  Having the hadassim higher than the aravos is in the Rama; 
thus, when using the Ari's arrangement, having the hadassim *over* the 
aravos seems to be the same idea.

But L does have a kepeida to specifically try to hide the aravos behind 
the hadassim, to whatever extent is possible depending on how many 
hadassim one uses.



> The way most groups do it, the hadasim are on the left, next to the
> esrog.

I've never heard of anyone doing it that way.  To the best of my 
knowledge everyone who does not use the Ari's arrangement puts the 
hadassim on the right and the aravos on the left.



-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On 25/09/18 02:48, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> Something doesn't register about the RYBS story - Shavout first day can 
> be on? Friday night or Saturday night, it can't fall on Thursday night.

Not so.  Lo ADU Rosh, and Shavuos is one day earlier, so lo GHZ Shavuos. 
Therefore the first night can be on Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday
nights, but not on Monday, Wednesday, or Friday nights.

[Email #2. -micha]

On 23/09/18 14:31, Rabbi via Avodah wrote:
> While the Mahadura Basra of the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch paskins 
> like R' Yaakov Emdin (although for a different reason) and, as a result, 
> so does the Shaar HaKollel, the Previous (as well as the current) 
> Lubavitcher Rebbe said that one shouldn't Paskin like the Mahadura Basra 
> and R' Yaakov Emdin.

If there were a specific hora'ah from either the previous or last LR on 
this, then all L rabbonim would follow it.  But to the best of my 
knowledge while there were various comments over the years that could be 
interpreted as expressing the view that the practical halacha doesn't 
follow the Alter Rebbe's psak in that se'if (and other comments that 
could be interpreted the other way), there was never anything explicit 
on the subject, which is why many L rabbonim began paskening this way.


> Practically, there is no consensus Psak among Lubavitch Rabbonim, and 
> different Rabbonim Paskin differently.

This is true.  To the best of my knowledge until the early 5730s the 
majority of L rabbonim followed the general psak that someone who 
intends to return home keeps yomtov like the place he's from, and they 
either were unaware of this psak (since it's not in hilchos yomtov where 
one would expect to look), or considered the fact that it's in 
parentheses to indicate that the Alter Rebbe was unsure of it, so it 
shouldn't be relied on.  But AIUI over the course of the 5730s many L 
rabbonim came to the view that this is an explicit psak that L ought to 
follow, and this became the majority view.

There are certainly still prominent L rabbonim who disagree, and will 
pasken differently if you ask them.  The first time I spent yomtov in 
EY, the late R Zev Dov Slonim, the rav of Central J'm, asked me how many 
days I was keeping, and when I said "one" he didn't say anything but 
gave a twitch with his nose from which I concluded that had I asked him 
to pasken for me he would have told me to keep two days.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 5:08 AM Ben Waxman via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Something doesn't register about the RYBS story - Shavout first day can
> be on  Friday night or Saturday night, it can't fall on Thursday night.
> Ben
>

Shavuot begins on Thursday night (and thus second day yom tov is Shabbat,
as described in the article) whenever 1st day Pesah is a Thursday. This
last happened in 5769 (2009) and will happen again next year, 5780. In
spite of this long gap at the moment it's not particularly rare, in fact
it's commoner than any other day, occurring almost once in three years on
the average.
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It can, and will in 5790.

On 25 September 2018 at 07:48, Ben Waxman via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Something doesn't register about the RYBS story - Shavout first day can be
> on  Friday night or Saturday night, it can't fall on Thursday night.
> Ben
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> 
RJFS:
> 
>> I am utterly puzzled by this Zohar, because tzur and sela` are two
>> totally different words that mean different things.  Their meanings
>> don't even overlap.
>> 
RSM:
> 
> Please expland. What is the distinction between these two words?
> Brown-Driver-Briggs, Even Shoshan and Kadari are not aware of it.

The Zohar you?re discussing addresses this.  See

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14355&;st=&pgnum=127
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14355&;st=&pgnum=127>

David Riceman



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On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 09:18:14AM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: There is a hava mina in this statement that the Maggid was
: unauthorized to make these changes, a claim which I find dubious.

Why? The whole idea could have been launched after the Baal Shem Tov's
petirah.

I am not saying that /is/ what happened, just that it's a possibility
I wouldn't find dubious.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On September 25, 2018 8:16:16 PM PDT, Zev Sero wrote:
>[Email #2. -micha]
>On 23/09/18 14:31, Rabbi via Avodah wrote:
>> While the Mahadura Basra of the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch paskins 
>> like R' Yaakov Emdin (although for a different reason) and, as a result, 
>> so does the Shaar HaKollel, the Previous (as well as the current) 
>> Lubavitcher Rebbe said that one shouldn't Paskin like the Mahadura Basra 
>> and R' Yaakov Emdin.

>If there were a specific hora'ah from either the previous or last LR on
>this, then all L rabbonim would follow it.  But to the best of my 
>knowledge while there were various comments over the years that could be 
>interpreted as expressing the view that the practical halacha doesn't 
>follow the Alter Rebbe's psak in that se'if (and other comments that 
>could be interpreted the other way), there was never anything explicit 
>on the subject, which is why many L rabbonim began paskening this way.

There are a few letter which are fairly clear. The thing is:

1. They were sent to individuals, so the Rabbonim may have not heard of
them (though two of them were printed in Likkutei Sichos v. 11, which
came out in the 70s).

2. Letter #3 (which says to follow the Mahadura Basra) seems to argue
on letter #1 and 2 (which says to follow Mahadura Kamma). So it could
be an issue of what was the Rebbe's last opinion.

The ones I found:

4:973

????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???"? ??? ?? ?????. ????? ???, ????
???? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?"?,
???? ??"? ?????? ????"? ??"? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???' ???????,
???? ??? ???"? ???? ????? ???????.

???[?] ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ??"? ??"? ????"?, ??? ????? ???
????? ???"? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???' ?? ???????.

????"? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????.

?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????, ?????? ??????? ????,

???"? ????"?.

7:2029

?????? ???? ??"? ????? ???"? ?"? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???"? ???, ?????
???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??"? ?"? ?"? ?????? ???"?
????? ????"? ??' ?' ???? ?' ???? ??"? ?????? ???? ??' ?? - ????"?

????????? - ?????? ?"? ??"? ???? ????? ??? ?'.

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?"? ??"? ????"? ???????"? ???"? ??"?, ???
???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ????? ???
??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?"? ?????.

????? ????? ???????? ??????.


17:6193

?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?"? ???"?, ??? ???? ?????? ???"? ??? ?? ?????.

?????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?"?,
??"? ????? ?? ??"? ???? ?? ?"? ???"? ?"? ???? ????? ??? ?????, ?????
???"? ??? ????? ??? ??"? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? (?? ??? ??? ?"?
??????, ??? ??? ??"?).

It could also be that while the Rebbe held unlike the Mahadura Basra, but
since the Minhag was to follow the Mahadura Basra, he said to follow it.


Also, parentheses in Mahadura Basra signify psak based on Kabbala unlike
in the Mahadura Kamma where it was a siman that he wasn't sure and would
possibly retract.

I am not disputing that. My point was that the author seems to be 
arguing that since the Baal Shem Tov didn't make this change, no one 
else had the right to do so. That point is what I find dubious, the 
questioning of the Maggid's right to make changes.

On 9/26/2018 1:03 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
 > : unauthorized to make these changes, a claim which I find dubious.
 >
 > Why? The whole idea could have been launched after the Baal Shem Tov's
 > petirah.
 >
 > I am not saying that /is/ what happened, just that it's a possibility
 > I wouldn't find dubious.





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