Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 102

Fri, 07 Sep 2018

• 1. Re: Pas Yisroel During Aseres Y'mei Teshuvah (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Prof. Levine)
• 5. FYI - STAR-K Yom Tov Info (Professor L. Levine)
• 6. Re: Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Zev Sero)

From https://goo.gl/K4PWKG<;http://hybrid-web.global.blackspider.com/urlwrap/?q=AXicE2Rk0JnHwKAKxEU5lYamGXrFRWV6uYmZOcn5eSVF-Tl6yfm5DOUW5q5RBSalBkaGpuYWDFlFmckZDsWp6YlAVWAFGSUlBcVW-vrp-fl66Tn63iYB4d7uDAwMOxcxMAAA2SseUA&;Z>


However, the time of year when most people are machmir regarding pas
Yisroel is during the days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur (Aseres
Y'mei Teshuvah), based on Shulchan Aruch 603:1 who records such a custom. 
During those 10 days, Jews who otherwise rely on the lenient opinion that
permits pas paltar in all cases, are careful to only eat pas Yisroel when
it reasonably available.  It is worth noting that in this context, Mishnah
Berurah's (603:1) defines "reasonably available" as requiring less than 72
minutes of travel to obtain.


===================================

See http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol30/v30n125.shtml#12 for my earlier comments

KVCT
Joel Rich
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At 09:58 AM 9/7/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>What is the relevance of all this? You claimed that your minyan was 
>following the original minhag of saying selichos early in the 
>morning when in fact it is not as it is starting selichos after alos 
>hashachar. The fact that most say selichos later, does that make it right?


I belive that I claimed that my father-in-law told me that where he 
came from they said selichos on the first day at 4 am and based on 
this I wondered where the custom to say the first selichos at 1 am came from.

YL
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On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 11:04:34AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: I belive that I claimed that my father-in-law told me that where he 
: came from they said selichos on the first day at 4 am and based on 
: this I wondered where the custom to say the first selichos at 1 am came from.

... and now you know. An over millennium old piyut named Bemotza'ei
Menuchah reflects saying selichos closer to the end of Shabbos.

To the extent that your minyan had to alter it for the situation in which
you said it; your minyan was atypical, compared to historical Ashkenazi
norms. As were Selichos at whereever your father-in-law came from.

As for a source... the Birkei Yoseif (OC 581) says it's from the Ari,
so as to still utilize the Qedushas Shabbos of Melaveh Malka time.

Whereas the Shaarei Teshuvah (s"q 1*) says in the name of the Maharam
that we wait until chatzos because qedushas Shabbos before chatzos
makes it inappropriate to say Vidui.

It is also implied by the Rama's discussion of early Selichos that
historically, more were saying Selichos too early than saying them at
the end of the ashmores.

Which is also why this is only done the first night (Or leYom Rishon),
even by people who have no problem staying up half the night.
No "BeMotza'ei Menuchah", not call for midnight selichos.

Well, not really "no call". As the proper time is from chatzos to alos,
and zerizim maqdimin lemotzvos... And the usually source for Tiqun
Chatzos, to show that Chatzos is an eis ratzon, apply -- Yevamos 72a,
b. Let me leave it with "insufficient reason" to stay up.

Although many Sepharadim, who don't say BeMotza'ei Menuchah in any case,
do make a point of saying Selichos at chatzos. (In my 2nd-hand experience,
before Alot is more common.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Eliot

At 12:23 PM 9/7/2018, allan.en...@gmail.com wrote:
>Minhagei Klal Yisrael do not start and end with your father-in-law.

Agreed,  but it is indicative of what went on in Europe where he came from.

There is no question in my mind that Yahadus in Europe before WW II 
was quite different from what we see today.  For example,  no one in 
Lita wore their tzitzis out including the Chofetz Chaim.

YL
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On 07/09/18 12:59, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> At 12:23 PM 9/7/2018, allan.en...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Minhagei Klal Yisrael do not start and end with your father-in-law.

> Agreed,? but it is indicative of what went on in Europe where he came from.

Which may have been atypical of anywhere else.


> There is no question in my mind that Yahadus in Europe before WW II was 
> quite different from what we see today.? For example,? no one in Lita 
> wore their tzitzis out including the Chofetz Chaim.

Lita != Europe

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper


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