Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 101

Fri, 07 Sep 2018

• 1. Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Re: Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Negel Vasser, Practical Application (Professor L. Levine)
• 4. The Performing Kiddush Prior to Tekiyas Shofar Puzzle (Professor L. Levine)
• 5. Re: Choices? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: alexa sale? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Pas Yisroel During Aseres Y'mei Teshuvah (Professor L. Levine)
• 8. Re: Choices? (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Marty Bluke)

R' Yitzchak Levine wrote:
"I personally do not understand where the custom to say the first
Slichos at night came from.  My father-in-law, A"H,  told me that in
Europe selichos were said every day in the early morning starting at
about 4 am.

The Vo'Sikin  Minyan I daven at will be saying Selichos this Sunday
morning and every morning stating at 5:10 DST which is equivalent to
4:10 AM EST.  This agrees with the practice that  my father-in-law
saw in Europe."

The 5:10AM - 4:10AM is irrelevant. Selichos are supposed to be said
b'ashmores haboker, before alos hashachar. Alos Hashachar in Brooklyn now
is 5:03 so you are not saying selichos at the optimal time either.
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At 10:48 AM 9/6/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>R' Yitzchak Levine wrote:
>"I personally do not understand where the custom to say the first?
>Slichos at night came from.?  My father-in-law, A"H, ? told me that in?
>Europe selichos were said every day in the early morning starting at?
>about 4 am.
>
>The Vo'Sikin ? Minyan I daven at will be saying Selichos this Sunday?
>morning and every morning stating at 5:10 DST which is equivalent to?
>4:10 AM EST.?  This agrees with the practice that ? my father-in-law?
>saw in Europe."
>
>The 5:10AM - 4:10AM is irrelevant. Selichos are 
>supposed to be said b'ashmores haboker, before 
>alos hashachar. Alos Hashachar in Brooklyn now 
>is 5:03 so you are not saying selichos at the optimal time either.

Be this as it may,  I do not believe that one 
will find many shuls in Brooklyn that says 
selichos earlier than 5:10 am, certainly not 
before alos hashachar.   Indeed,  most say 
Slichos later.  Many have minyanim at 10 pm every night.

The yeshivas start even later.  I think that 
Chaim Berlin starts at 7:45 and says very little of the selichos.

YL


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From yesterday's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. In the previous Halacha Yomis, we listed three explanations as to why we
wash netilas yadayim upon waking in the morning. What are the practical
differences between these three opinions?



A.

  1.  If one slept while wearing gloves: According to Rosh, there is no
  reason to wash his hands since they did not become dirty. In contrast,
  Rashba and Shulchan Aruch hold they must be washed regardless of the hand
  covering: according to Rashba one must sanctify himself each morning
  anew, and according to Mechaber the ru?ach ra?ah must be removed (see
  Be?ur Halachah s.v. Im Hayah).
  2.  If one woke up in the middle of the night, washed his hands and does
  not go back to sleep: Rosh and Mechaber would hold there is no need to
  wash his hands again when morning dawns; according to Rosh they have not
  become dirty, and according to Mechaber the ru?ach ra?ah has already been
  removed. However, Rashba would hold that he is required to wash, as he
  must sanctify himself when morning dawns (Be?ur Halachah s.v. kol
  halaylah).
  3.  Does one need to use a cup for negel vasser? According to Rosh, the
  obligation stems from the need to clean the hands; thus, there is no need
  for a cup. However, according to Rashba it is proper to use a cup: Rashba
  holds negel vasser is akin to a Kohen sanctifying himself from the Kiyor
  (a large water vessel in the Mikdash), and according to the Mechaber, the
  water must be poured, but it need not be from a cup. (see Mishnah Berurah
  4:17).


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From https://goo.gl/dcB8cN


Picture, if you will, the hallowed halls of almost any Yeshivah, almost
anywhere in the world, on Rosh Hashanah morning. As the strains of Shiras
Chanah conclude, followed by the post-Haftarah brachos, there suddenly is a
loud bang on the Bimah and the Gabbai calls out ?Kiddush!? Most of those
assembled take a break for a quick Kiddush and then return for the day?s
main Mitzvah - the Tekiyas Shofar, the Blowing of the Shofar. The reciting
of ?Lamnatzeach? soon reach a crescendo, not unlike a deafening roar, as
the congregation eagerly anticipates and prepares for the Shofar Blowing.

See the above URL for more.

I must admit that I find the subject line of this discussion a bit strange.  I thought one makes kiddush rather than performs kiddush.

YL


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On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 05:53:48PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: >: Does HKB"H view it as equivalent to any other choice one could've made or
: >: is one dinged for the original choice when it was made? [is moving into
: >: an apartment building knowing one will need to use a manned elevator on
: >: Shabbat another example? How about certain medical specialties ]

: > Questions like these are unanswerable, since we can't know how Hashem
: > judges.

: True-yet we assumedly need to make our best guess when deciding on a course of action.

That question had a nafqa mina lemaaseh? I missed it.

:> How much
:> onesh does he get for whatever moved his nequdas habechirah to the point
:> where he is in that sorry state? And, what if he didn't do the moving,
:> it was a product of nature or nurture? Then he would be a tinoq shenishba,
:> which is an application of oneis in the gemara, and oneis Rachmana patrei?

: Oneis rachmana is an interesting concept - does it mean going to a
: neutral status or crediting as if one did a positive action? ...

Why would you think it's positive? It is not like he thereby moved his
nequdas habechirah in the right direction. Unless maybe, it was an
aveirah be'oneis lishmah. And we haven't revisited aveirah lishmah (even
without the "be'oneis" in years. We're due!

:                                                              And how
: sure should we be that nkudas habechira is actionable and you get a pass
: on other items (iirc r' Dessler is not the only opinion on the matter)

True, but I can only answer what I believe. Seems to me REED's position
aligns with personal experience. I can't say I freely chose something
whose choice didn't even reach my conscious attention.

I also do not know of anyone writing about the nequdas habechirah just
to reject it. If anything, an addict -- one extreme case of a decision
well beyond the nequdah -- is considered a pesi (think of "shomer pesa'im
H'" invoked for smokers) and an oneis. Maybe they would agree, if the
model were part of their lexicon. Who knows?

But in any case, it describes my experience. Discussing other shitos would
be like asking me to seriously consider shitos that are based on the sky
being purple. Yeah, they exist. But can I really consider something at
odds with the vast majority of my experience? (Except one sliver of sky
during a few stunning sunsets, maybe...)

In any case, if you are trying to know what is actionable in an actual
lemmaseh situation, that means the choice in front of you is within your
nequdas habechirah. By definition -- the other choices are when you aren't
considering the existence of options.

My answer would only be theoretical hashkafah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             People were created to be loved.
mi...@aishdas.org        Things were created to be used.
http://www.aishdas.org   The reason why the world is in chaos is that
Fax: (270) 514-1507      things are being loved, people are being used.

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 01:06:41PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
:> Saul Guberman wrote:
:>: Why would the Alexa step be any different than you typing into your
:>: computer.   All electronic, no physical kinyan happens.
: 
:> He was talking to himself, not intentially to Alexa.
: 
:> I don't think maqneh shelo midaas is a thing.

: Assume as he woke he had full intent to sell just not knowledge it was
: shabbat. What if instead of alexa it was his non-Jewish assistant?

YOu shifted the question from a keli to amirah le'akum, which is an
interesting case of shevus deshvus bemaqom mitzvah -- amirah le'akum
to do a qinyan for the sake of getting rid of chameitz.

But that has little bearing on the Alexa case.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

From https://goo.gl/K4PWKG


However, the time of year when most people are machmir regarding pas
Yisroel is during the days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur (Aseres
Y?mei Teshuvah), based on Shulchan Aruch 603:1 who records such a custom. 
During those 10 days, Jews who otherwise rely on the lenient opinion that
permits pas paltar in all cases, are careful to only eat pas Yisroel when
it reasonably available.  It is worth noting that in this context, Mishnah
Berurah?s (603:1) defines ?reasonably available? as requiring less than 72
minutes of travel to obtain.


See the above URL for a discussion of Pas Yisroel all year round.


YL
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[In reply to Micha Berger:]
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 05:53:48PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>:>: Does HKB"H view it as equivalent to any other choice one could've made or
>:>: is one dinged for the original choice when it was made? [is moving into
>:>: an apartment building knowing one will need to use a manned elevator on
>:>: Shabbat another example? How about certain medical specialties ]

>:> Questions like these are unanswerable, since we can't know how Hashem
>:> judges.

>: True-yet we assumedly need to make our best guess when deciding on
>: a course of action.

> That question had a nafqa mina lemaaseh? I missed it.

Yes-consider a med student who has a slight preference to be an emergency
medicine md but could just as well become a dermatologist. Assumedly
the latter would be less likely to put one in questionable situations
in the future.

>: Oneis rachmana is an interesting concept - does it mean going to a
>: neutral status or crediting as if one did a positive action? ...

> Why would you think it's positive? It is not like he thereby moved his
> nequdas habechirah in the right direction. Unless maybe, it was an
> aveirah be'oneis lishmah. And we haven't revisited aveirah lishmah (even
> without the "be'oneis" in years. We're due!

Rabbi Chananya ben Akashya said:1 "The Holy One, blessed be He, wished
to make the people of Israel meritorious; therefore He gave them Torah
and mitzvos in abundant measure, as it is written:2 'The Lrd desired,
for the sake of his [Israel's] righteousness, to make the Torah great
and glorious.'"

some mfarshim explain 1. As avoiding a prohibition is not just neutral
but rewarded


KVCT
Joel Rich

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:47 PM Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> The Vo'Sikin  Minyan I daven at will be saying Selichos this Sunday
> morning and every morning stating at 5:10 DST which is equivalent to
> 4:10 AM EST...
...
> Be this as it may,  I do not believe that one will find many shuls in
> Brooklyn that says selichos earlier than 5:10 am, certainly not before alos
> hashachar.   Indeed,  most say Slichos later.  Many have minyanim at 10 pm
> every night.

What is the relevance of all this? You claimed that your minyan was
following the original minhag of saying selichos early in the morning when
in fact it is not as it is starting selichos after alos hashachar. The
fact that most say selichos later, does that make it right?

> The yeshivas start even later.  I think that Chaim Berlin starts at 7:45
> and says very little of the selichos.

The yeshivas have a different calculation:

1. Bitul torah -- the boys stay up late learning so if they have to get
up early to say selichos it will affect their learning

2. The selichos are written in very difficult and poetic hebrew that
most people do not understand. Therefore, it is very difficult to say
all of the selichos with kavana. Because of that they apply the rule
better a little with kavana then a lot with no kavana.


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