Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 90

Mon, 06 Aug 2018

• 1. Without Torah the land is not the Land of Israel (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Without Torah the land is not the Land of Israel (Ben Waxman)
• 3. gzeira shyava (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: gzeira shyava (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an Uncertified Restaurant? (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an Uncertified Restaurant? (Micha Berger)
• 7. animal ownership (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: When your Korban Pesach is a Tereifah (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: animal ownership (Zev Sero)
• 10. R'eh Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will. Nehru (Cantor Wolberg)

At 10:13 PM 8/1/2018, Ben Waxman  wrote:
>D
>1) Looks like this prediction wasn't correct.

The prediction was not about a state like the State of Israel where 
the Torah is not  being observed  by far too many in its entirety.

>2) More importantly than? my somewhat flippant statement, RH's drash is
>fine for 1880.? But what does one do when in 1948 things didn't go this
>way, when the first prime minister is Ben Gurion and not Rav Kook? That
>is always the question when things don't go the way you think that they
>will - what are you going to do now?

Are you equating th\e present State of Israel with what RSRH 
considered the ideal for Eretz Yisroel, namely, a country based on 
the Torah?  RSRH wrote, "Thus shall you await the moment when you 
will be able once again to enter the Land, which was given to you so 
that you may observe the Torah in its entirety."

Is the Torah being observed by all residing in the State of Israel in 
its entirety?  I am sure you will agree that it is not.

The prediction was and still is correct.

YL
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1) The ideal was thought of long before RSRH.
2) "Are you equating . . ." No.
3) A prediction whose time has yet to come is by definition unprovable. 
We'll only know if it was correct afterwards. However, Am Yisrael didn't 
wait (or isn't waiting) for complete redemption before going to Israel. 
BSD in the near future, we will all properly repent and the rest of you 
can come.

On 8/2/2018 4:31 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
 >
 > Are you equating th\e present State of Israel with what RSRH 
considered the ideal for Eretz Yisroel, namely, a country based on the 
Torah?? RSRH wrote, "Thus shall you await the moment when you will be 
able once again to enter the Land, which was given to you so that you 
may observe the Torah in its entirety."
 >
 > Is the Torah being observed by all residing in the State of Israel in 
its entirety?? I am sure you will agree that it is not.
 >
 > The prediction was and still is correct

The gemara in R"H 2b learns what seems to be a gzeirah shava of 20/20.
Rashi comments that Rav Papa learned the specific application from his
rebbi "al yidei gzeira shava." However, both the Ritva and Aruch L'nair
state it's not a "real" gzeirah shavah because it's not mufneh (open, word
not needed). 1.) Is this a disagreement in tradition? 2.) We see elsewhere
a gzeirah shava which isn't mufneh (just that it can be logically
rebutted). So, why not here?
KT
Joel Rich

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On Thu, Aug 02, 2018 at 09:34:49PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: his rebbi "al yidei gzeira shava." However, both the Ritva and Aruch
: L'nair state it's not a "real" gzeirah shavah because it's not mufneh
: (open, word not needed). 1.) Is this a disagreement in tradition? 2.) We
: see elsewhere a gzeirah shava which isn't mufneh (just that it can be
: logically rebutted). So, why not here?

Chazal discuss g'sh mufneh and g"sh mufneh mitzad echad (one word usage
is needed, only the other is extraneous). There is even a wikipedia
article "mufneh" (tranliteraion mine) at
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%94

I think the machloqes ends up being about what we assume R' Papa held.

It seems to me Rashi's subtext at "shenas 20, shenas 20 lig"sh" that
discussion in RH 2b all about R Papa's position on the meta-issue of
g"sh, and not this one g"sh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Life isn't about finding yourself.
mi...@aishdas.org        Life is about creating yourself.
http://www.aishdas.org            - George Bernard Shaw
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Could he mean that one can rely on various kulot b'sh'at dachak (someone 
driving all night long?) but not to pop in and grab a coffee on your 10 
minute walk to work?

However, if this is the case, the rav could have made this point clear.
Ben

On 7/30/2018 3:29 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
 > He even *changes* the question, by introducing the words "on a 
regular basis", suggesting that "Maybe I could see doing it 
occasionally, but how could one do it on a regular basis?"

On Thu, Aug 02, 2018 at 07:44:58PM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: Could he mean that one can rely on various kulot b'sh'at dachak
: (someone driving all night long?) but not to pop in and grab a
: coffee on your 10 minute walk to work?

Until last week or so, the star-K had guidelines for using Starbucks. Then
they announced they were getting out of the business of being responsible
for up-to-date info about the halachic issues of a product they aren't
inspecting and certifying. (Just to be clear, in contrast to stories with
headlines that made it sound that star-K changed their halaachic stance.)

To quote those now-defunct guidelines
<https://www.star-k.org/articles/kosher-lists/1709/starbucks>:

> When one is traveling, (traveling means when one is away from home and no
> other viable kosher certified coffee option is readily available), this
> creates a situation of shaas hadchak i.e., a difficult situation and one
> need not be concerned with the restrictions on the beverages listed below
> (based on the Psak of the Noda BYehuda quoted in Yad Ephraim, Y.D. 122-6,
> D"H Shelo' it can be found in Shu"t Noda B'Yehuda Kama 36) . One does not
> need to be driving on the highway to fit into the category of traveling.

Nothing as drastic as driving all night.

So, for example (for those who drink cholov hacompanies), Cappuccino,
regular coffee, Macchiato, a latte were only deemed okay when
travelling. (Even though a regular espresso was fine. I don't know why.
I don't know the issue we're discussing and I can't see the pattern.
Check the web page for a full list.)

Again, the advice on that page is based on increasingly stale info
about Starbucks ingredients and procedures.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are what we repeatedly do.
mi...@aishdas.org        Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org   but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Aristotle

A relative asked me about neutering cats and I told him that I go by the 
"sell your animal to a non-Jew and have another non-Jew do the 
operation" psak.? This relative has some cats that he wants to neuter. 
He asked me what constitutes ownership. Meaning, my cat was born in my 
house, I take him to the vet, he sleeps inside, and has a name. My 
relatives cats are basically well fed street cats. He feeds them but 
doesn't give them shots, or let them inside, or take care of them in any 
other way.

Is ownership in this case a restriction? Does someone need to own a cat 
to do this operation? Is feeding a cat (that lives in your property) 
enough to constitute ownership?

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 04:01:27PM +0300, menucha via Avodah wrote:
:> (And that explains why I am in favor of having more Yoatzot. There are
:> questions a rav wouldn't be as likely to think of, simply because knowing
:> about a given bit of anatomy isn't like actually owning a set. There are
:> implications that are less likely to be thought of. 
...
: According to that logic, the ones who answer questions about a korban
: should be lambs...

More exact parallel: The best people to answer questions about qorbanos
are kohanim who have performed qorbanos.

And indeed, there were special batei din of/for kohanim for just this
reason.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

On 03/08/18 06:48, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> A relative asked me about neutering cats and I told him that I go by the 
> "sell your animal to a non-Jew and have another non-Jew do the 
> operation" psak.? This relative has some cats that he wants to neuter. 
> He asked me what constitutes ownership. Meaning, my cat was born in my 
> house, I take him to the vet, he sleeps inside, and has a name. My 
> relatives cats are basically well fed street cats. He feeds them but 
> doesn't give them shots, or let them inside, or take care of them in any 
> other way.
> 
> Is ownership in this case a restriction? Does someone need to own a cat 
> to do this operation? Is feeding a cat (that lives in your property) 
> enough to constitute ownership?

I don't see what ownership has to do with it, except in the negative 
sense that obviously one has no right to do anything with someone else's 
animal.  But there is no difference between your own animal and one that 
is hefker; the issur is to surgically sterilize *any* animal, regardless 
of who owns it.  Some rishonim hold this issur applies to bnei noach 
too, some don't.  Either way, giving it away to the vet is just a means 
of surrendering control over it, so that when he chooses to neuter his 
animal you can tell yourself it's not your responsibility, you didn't do 
it, you didn't tell him to do it, you had no power or right to stop him. 
And then you buy it back, already sterile through no fault of your own. 
The fact that the profit the vet made on the transaction exactly equals 
the fee he usually charges people for this service is just an amazing 
coincidence.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

The opening verse of this portion is the foundation upon 
which the idea of free will is based. The choice between
life and death, blessing or the opposite, is granted us 
through our actions and deeds (good or bad).

The text speaks in the singular (r?ey) as well as in the 
plural (lifneychem) to indicate the two separate avenues
one may choose. The singular symbolizes selfishness 
as opposed to the plural ? concern for others. 

Our commentators point to the experience of King Saul 
who sought the advice of the prophet Samuel (after Samuel?s
death). King Saul?s words to his departed leader, show the 
king?s selfish preoccupation with himself, his problems,
worries, etc. 
?.vayomer Shaul Tzar lee m?od uflishtim nilchamim bee
Vaylohim sar mayalai?.
And Saul said (to Samuel) I am sore distressed; for the 
Philistines make was against me, and God is departed
from me (and answereth me no more)?.
(First Samuel: 28:15)

Not for the people?s problems did he plead, but for his own
fallen glory. Blessings are surely not in sight when a leader
transfers his paramount concern from that of his flock, to his
own selfish ends. (Sound familiar)?

The very names by which the two mountains are distinguished
are perhaps indicative of this idea. The hill from where the 
curses came was called Har Eival ? the very name expressed
in the singular showing that no blessings can flow from a place 
or an idea that concerns itself with the problems of an individual
rather than the multitude.

The blessings on the other hand were pronounced from the heights of
Har Gerizim ? clearly showing that blessed life is one which directs
us from the narrow path of selfishness to the broad highway of altruism
and generosity. 
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