Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 89

Wed, 01 Aug 2018

• 1. Re: [Areivim] Assur to live in Israel (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Re: When your Korban Pesach is a Tereifah (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an Uncertified Restaurant? (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Without Torah the land is not the Land of Israel (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Eikev "...Not by bread alone does man live..." (Cantor Wolberg)
• 6. Re: Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an Uncertified Restaurant? with corrected link (Zev Sero)
• 7. New Raui LaAchilah Question (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an Uncertified Restaurant? (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: New Raui LaAchilah Question (mgl...@gmail.com)
• 10. The Neolithic Bottleneck (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an Uncertified Restaurant? (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: Question on video Can I Drink Kosher Coffee from an Uncertified Restaurant? (Zev Sero)

Moving to Avodah for a more in-depth torah discussion.

RHS expressed the following shita about moving to Israel many times in his
shiurim.

It is clear that the majority of poskim hold that there is some kind of
mitzva nowadays either kiyumis or chiyuvis (see for example Igros Moshe EH
1:102 where he assumes that most poskim hold it is a mitzva and he says its
a mitzva kiyumis) to live in Eretz Yisrael. As Torah observant Jews we want
to do as many mitzvahs as possible even if it is not a mitzvah chiyuvis,
for example, all of us wear a four cornered beged with tzitzis even though
there is no chiyuv to do so. Therefore he said that a person's attitude
should be to ask himself why he is not being mekayem this mitzva? What is
my heter to not be mekayem this mitzva? Now it is very possible that you
have a good reason not to be mekayem the mitzva, but you shouldn't be proud
of it. You should be sad that circumstances dictate that you can't be
makayem this mitzva and hopeful that at some point your circumstances will
change and you will be able to be mekayem the mitzva. Look at all of the
tefilos that Moshe davened to be allowed just to step foot in EY.

RHS told the story about himself that on one of his visits to Israel he met
the chief Rabbi. The Chief Rabbi told him he should come to live in Israel
an he will find him a position as a Rosh yeshiva. RHS the proceeded to
explain all that he does in America, the shiurim he gives, the work he does
for the OU etc. and after that the chief Rabbi told him, "I am paskening
that you must stay in America". RHS work in America outweighed the mitzva
of living in Israel. Every person has to make this cheshbon/ask this
shaila. If the answer is if for whatever reason we can't be mekayem the
mitzva we should be sad and not proud.

Here is a quote from the Kuzari (2:23). In 2:22 the Chaver extolled the
virtues of the land of Israel. In 2:23 he calls out the hypocrisy of the
people who daven about a return to Zion but have no interest in actually
returning to Zion.

"Al Khazari: If this be so, thou fallest short of the duty laid down in thy
law, by not endeavouring to reach that place, and making it thy abode in
life and death, although thou sayest: 'Have mercy on Zion, for it is the
house of our life,' and believest that the Shekhinah will return thither.
And had it no other preference than that the Shekhinah dwelt there five
hundred years, this is sufficient reason for men's souls to retire thither
and find purification there, as happens near the abodes of the pious and
the prophets. Is it not 'the gate of heaven'?
...
Yet your first forefathers chose it as an abode in preference to their
birth-places, and lived there as strangers, rather than as citizens in
their own country. This they did even at a time when the Shekhinah was yet
visible, but the country was full of unchastity, impurity, and idolatry.
Your fathers, however, had no other desire than to remain in it. Neither
did they leave it in times of dearth and famine except by God's permission.
Finally, they directed their bones to be buried there.

The Rabbi: This is a severe reproach, O king of the Khazars. It is the sin
which kept the divine promise with regard to the second Temple, viz.: Sing
and rejoice, O daughter of Zion' (Zachariah 2:10
<https://www.sefaria.org/Zechariah.2.10>), from being fulfilled. Divine
Providence was ready to restore everything as it had been at first, if they
had all willingly consented to return. But only a part was ready to do so,
whilst the majority and the aristocracy remained in Babylon, preferring
dependence and slavery, and unwilling to leave their houses and their
affairs. An allusion to them might be found in the enigmatic words of
Solomon: I sleep, but my heart waketh (Song of Songs 5:2-4
<https://www.sefaria.org/Song_of_Songs.5.2-4>). He designates the exile by
sleep, and the continuance of prophecy among them by the wakefulness of the
heart. 'It is the voice of my beloved that knocketh' means God's call to
return; 'My head is filled with dew' alludes to the Shekhinah which emerged
from the shadow of the Temple. The words: 'I have put off my coat,' refer
to the people's slothfulness in consenting to return. The sentence: 'My
beloved stretcheth forth his hand through the opening' may be interpreted
as the urgent call of Ezra, Nehemiah, and the Prophets, until a portion of
the people grudgingly responded to their invitation. In accordance with
their mean mind they did not receive full measure. Divine Providence only
gives man as much as he is prepared to receive; if his receptive capacity
be small, he obtains little, and much if it be great. Were we prepared to
meet the God of our forefathers with a pure mind, we should find the same
salvation as our fathers did in Egypt. If we say: 'Worship his holy
hill--worship at His footstool--He who restoreth His glory to Zion' (Psalms
99:9 <https://www.sefaria.org/Psalms.99.9>, Psalsm 99:5), and other words,
this is but as the chattering of the starling and the nightingale. We do
not realise what we say by this sentence, nor others, as thou rightly
observest, O Prince of the Khazars. "
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On 28/07/18 17:03, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> In the Neot Kedumim Hagada (I think that is where I saw this tidbit. It 
> was a long time ago when I read it), they said that there was t'nai beit 
> din on every Korban Pesach, that allowed anyone to eat from anyone's 
> korban. Therefore, if your korban was found to be pasul, you could join 
> in with someone else, even if you weren't formally included in his group.

That's not consistent with the Rambam or with the Seder Korban Pesach 
said  (at least in "Nusach Sfard") after mincha on Erev Pesach.  I 
wonder what his source could be

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> Rabbi Moshe Elefant says towards the end of the video at
> https://goo.gl/yPrU that if one found a fleishig utensil
> in a dairy dishwasher "It would be a catastrophe."  I do
> not understand why this would be the case.

(Please note that when I tried RYL's link, it brought me to an unrelated
Portugese site. I suggest using this link instead: https://goo.gl/1zVBU3)

I agree with RYL. He might have said merely that the fleishig utensil would
now have to be kashered, but using the word "catastrophe" gives the
impression that even the dairy utensils (and maybe even) the dishwasher
itself) would have to be kashered. Perhaps he was merely exaggerating, but
if so it is a good example of the dangers of exaggeration.

But what REALLLY bothers me about that video is his conclusion, where he
asks the audience, "So how could someone go on a regular basis, when they
know that the cup that they're drinking from, and the other items that were
used to prepare that coffee, were washed together in the same dishwasher,
as non-kosher items."

He never answers the question.

He never says whether we are allowed to do this or not. He only asks,
rhetorically, "How could someone do that?"

He is implying that it is assur, or that it ought to be assur, or something
along those lines but I'm not sure what - without actually answering the
question.

He even *changes* the question, by introducing the words "on a regular
basis", suggesting that "Maybe I could see doing it occasionally, but how
could one do it on a regular basis?" Like the rhetorical non-psak, this too
seems deliberately designed to muddy the waters. If he would indeed allow
this on an occasional basis but not on a regular basis, then he ought to
come out and say so (similar to the very nuanced articles that the Star-K
writes about Starbucks and Slurpees and liquor).

On the other hand, if the OU feels that they need to draw a strong red line
as a Lo Plug for people who won't grasp the nuances (like their refusal to
allow "Dairy Equipment" markings), the this video too should have been
clearer and unequivocal.

I'd like to write to the OU about this video, but I want to hear from the
chevra first.

Akiva Miller
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1) Looks like this prediction wasn't correct.
2) More importantly than? my somewhat flippant statement, RH's drash is 
fine for 1880.? But what does one do when in 1948 things didn't go this 
way, when the first prime minister is Ben Gurion and not Rav Kook? That 
is always the question when things don't go the way you think that they 
will - what are you going to do now?


On 7/26/2018 2:20 PM, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
 > Thus shall you await the moment when
 > you will be able once again to enter the Land, which was given to you so
 > that you may observe the Torah in its entirety.
 >

8:3 ...Not by bread alone does man live, rather by everything that emanates from the mouth of God does man live.
 
There is an interesting metaphor here. As humans we must take in food.
Nevertheless, we are told that we don't live to eat and what we put in our
mouths is not nearly as important as the spiritual aspect of man ? what
comes out of the mouth of our Creator.	Also, bread refers to all
materialism.  In regard to bread as food, we elevate the act of eating to a
spiritual plane, first by the blessing that precedes the meal and the
birkat hamazon that follows the meal. At the meal we are also supposed to
talk words of Torah. So eating becomes a ritual and religious act and
brings people together for the sake of God and His Torah. Likewise, the
materialistic aspects of life should also be elevated to a spiritual plane.
Hence, earning money gives us the opportunity to help those less fortunate.
Having an education gives us the opportunity to implement our knowledge to
better the world. And so the list goes on...
Incidentally, the word companion means etymologically with bread.  In other words, when we share our bread with others, we gain a true companion.


The talmud asked what b?rocho did our ancestors make over the mon. 
The answer: Boruch ata??hamotzi lechem min hashamayim.
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On 27/07/18 12:27, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Rabbi Moshe Elefant says towards the end of the video
> that if one found a fleishig utensil in a dairy dishwasher "It would be 
> a catastrophe."? I do not understand why this would be the case.
> 
> If one meat fork, knife or spoon would be washed with dairy utensils,? I 
> would think that that meat fork or spoon or knife would be treif and 
> would need to be kashered.? However,? I find the implication that all of 
> the dairy utensils in the dairy dishwasher would be treif hard to 
> understand.? Wouldn't bitul apply here, and the dairy utensils would be OK?

Why are you assuming the dairy things are 60 times the size of the meat 
spoon?

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

In hopes of creating a new biodegradable option for food wrapping,
they came up with this.

https://bigthink.com/evan-fleischer/paper-plastic-or-crab

    Paper, plastic, or crab?
    July 29, 2018
    by Evan Fleischer

   Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology have developed [46]a
   compostable material derived from crab shells and tree fibers that
   might not only be able to replace plastic wrap but could even do a
   better job keeping food fresher for longer than currently available
   non-nature-derived plastic wrap.

My quesrtions were:
1- Could they be used for hot foolds al pi din?

2- If yes, would anyone actually do so? I can see hekhsheirim shying away
for policy ("heim lo yaaminu li") reasons.

3- Foods are rarely "seran wrapped" at had soledes bo temperatures anyway.
(I think the more environmental - less clingy actual Seran brand wrap
of the past few years couldn't handle the heat anyway.)

Do you have to be shocheid that maybe a store wrapped the prepared food
you just bought for Shabbos in crab wrap while still hot? (Assuming "no"
to #1.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Someone could simply answer him: Going to a non-Jew's home, every 
Shabbat, and drinking coffee or tea is a time honored custom, as brought 
down in the Aruch HaShulchan 225:21.

Ben
On 7/30/2018 3:29 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
 > But what REALLLY bothers me about that video is his conclusion, where 
he asks the audience, "So how could someone go on a regular basis, when 
they know that the cup that they're drinking from, and the other items 
that were used to prepare that coffee, were washed together in the same 
dishwasher, as non-kosher items."
 >
 > He never answers the question.

R' MB:
In hopes of creating a new biodegradable option for food wrapping, they came
up with this.

https://bigthink.com/evan-fleischer/paper-plastic-or-crab

    Paper, plastic, or crab?
    July 29, 2018
    by Evan Fleischer

   Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology have developed [46]a
   compostable material derived from crab shells and tree fibers that
   might not only be able to replace plastic wrap but could even do a
   better job keeping food fresher for longer than currently available
   non-nature-derived plastic wrap.

My quesrtions were:
1- Could they be used for hot foolds al pi din?
--------------------------------


production is second only to cellulose. Similar to cellulose nanocrystals
(CNCs) or nanofibers (CNFs), chitin nanofibers (ChNFs) can be isolated and
used as sustainable O2 barrier materials for food, electronics, and
pharmaceutical packaging. These bioavailable nanomaterials are readily
dispersed in water enabling spray-coated films to be deposited at high rates
onto uneven or delicate surfaces. In the present study, we demonstrate the
successful layer-by-layer spray coating of cationic ChNF and anionic CNC
suspensions onto poly(lactic acid) (PLA) films."

So we're talking about nanofibers of the crab shell (which, depending on the
crab, may well be edible). Per https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22539071,
this is how you make chitin nanofibers: "Chitin nanofibers are prepared from
the exoskeletons of crabs and prawns by a simple mechanical treatment after
the removal of proteins and minerals. The obtained nanofibers have fine
nanofiber networks with a uniform width of approximately 10-20 nm and a high
aspect ratio. The method used for chitin-nanofiber isolation is also
successfully applied to the cell walls of mushrooms. They form a complex
with glucans on the fiber surface. A grinder, a Star Burst atomization
system, and a high speed blender are all used in the mechanical treatment to
convert chitin to nanofibers. Mechanical treatment under acidic conditions
is the key to facilitate fibrillation. At pH 3-4, the cationization of amino
groups on the fiber surface assists nano-fibrillation by electrostatic
repulsive force."

I'm just not sure what that second piece means, but I suspect that in that
lies the answer to R' MB's question. Perhaps someone else on-list
understands this and can explain? 

KT,
MYG

https://bigthink.com/philip-perry/the-mystery-of-the-neolithic-bottleneck-may-be-over-thanks-to-one-plucky-undergrad
or http://bit.ly/2AmQdzm

I'm ignoring the "plucky undergrad"'s theory and propose one of my own.

    Big Think Interviews and Blogs
    The mystery of the Neolithic bottleneck may be over, thanks to one plucky
    undergrad
    June 10, 2018
    by Philip Perry

    The Neolithic period or "New Stone Age," developed at different times
    in different regions, but is generally thought to have taken place
    between 7,000-9,000 years ago. An important era in human
    development, this time period is best known for the Neolithic
    revolution. Here, humans began to take part in large-scale agriculture,
    domesticating large herds of animals, building megalithic architecture,
    and using polished stone tools.

    Then, starting around 7,000 years ago and taking place over the
    next two millennia, something odd happened. The diversity of the
    Y-chromosome plummeted. This took place across the continents of
    Africa, Asia, and Europe. It's the major reason why humans are
    99.9% identical in genetic makeup today. The Neolithic Y-chromosome
    bottleneck (as it's called) has stymied anthropologists and biologists
    since it was first discovered in 2015. Now, the mystery may have been
    solved.

So, in a period of time that might be that between Adam and Noach, there
was a genetic bottleneck, in which most of the variety in human males
died off.

Seems to me that once Haashem made Adam, homo saps that lacked a nishmas
chayim simply couldn't compete. Ending with Noach.

Problem is, I was identifying the Neolithic Revolution with the effects
of having a neshamah and the sudden upgrade in possible thought.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fulfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

On 7/31/2018 8:27 AM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
 > Someone could simply answer him: Going to a non-Jew's home, every 
Shabbat, and drinking coffee or tea is a time honored custom, as brought 
down in the Aruch HaShulchan 225:21.

Correction. That should be Oruch Hayim 425:21.

Ben

On 31/07/18 14:15, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> On 7/31/2018 8:27 AM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:

>> Someone could simply answer him: Going to a non-Jew's home, every 
>> Shabbat, and drinking coffee or tea is a time honored custom, as brought 
>> down in the Aruch HaShulchan 225:21.

> Correction. That should be Oruch Hayim 425:21.

Let's compromise on 325 :-)

The AhS finds a defense for this apparently common practise (though he 
doesn't say people do it every shabbos), against the ShA's apparent 
position that it's forbidden because the nochri might put more water in 
the kettle if he knows the yid is coming.

Then he says maybe even the ShA would permit it in the case of a 
samovar, since one normally fills it to the same level no matter how 
many people are coming, and while someone expecting  many guests would 
put on more tea leaves, one only expecting one or two guests will not.

He doesn't address the issue of keilim at all.  It's possible that the 
Jews brought their own glasses (since eruvin were ubiquitous). Or 
perhaps they relied on a combination of stam kelim einan bnei yoman and 
the opinion (contrary to the Rama) that glass is not boleia.  It's not 
stated, so we can speculate all we like, but neither of these heterim 
would apply to Starbucks, in stores where the brew basket is washed 
together with treife kelim.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper


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