Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 85

Thu, 19 Jul 2018

• 1. Re: Extending restrictions of 9 days (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Extending restrictions of 9 days (allan.en...@gmail.com)
• 3. Re: Extending restrictions of 9 days (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Extending restrictions of 9 days (allan.en...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: Extending restrictions of 9 days (Micha Berger)
• 6. Eicha (HOW did we let it happen)? (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. tisha baav (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: Extending restrictions of 9 days (David Riceman)
• 9. Re: [TorahMusings] Picking and Choosing Poskim (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Lev Beit Din Matneh Aleiyhem (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: B'not Tzelaphchad (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: tisha ba-av (David Riceman)
• 13. What is SinAs Chinam (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)

R' Ben Waxman asked:
> Is there any concept of extending the basic minhagim restrictions
> of the nine days like no meat or no wine to other "fancy" type
> foods? A great salmon steak is just as good or even better than
> many types of meat, certainly it is more expensive and can be seen
> as a delicacy. Similarly good beer or whiskey is certainly just as
> "sameach" as wine. Or do we say "the minhag is the minhag and
> don't go adding even more items to the list". IOW it is entirely
> possible to fulfill the letter of the minhag and yet not feel the
> nine days at all.

> Has this been discussed here?

Wine is avoided, but not because it is fancy. Meat is avoided, but not
because it is a delicacy.

Aruch Hashulchan 551:23 explains that we abstain from meat and wine on
these days to remember the korbanos and nesachim which have been batel.

Rav Shmuel Pinhasi (on R' Eli Mansour's website at
<http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=2730>)
says that this logic ought to apply even to water and bread, but the
rabbis specifically exempted these staples.

Note also that Rama 551:11 explicitly allows beer and mead, though he
does not explain *why* he allows them.


[email #2]

I feel that I should point out that until a few hours ago, I was
not aware that the restriction on wine and meat is because of the
korbanos. If anyone thinks I was displaying my knowledge of this topic,
they are wrong. I had thought the same thing that R' Ben Waxman did,
that we avoid meat and wine because they are fancy delicacies. I'd like
to share the logic I used to discover the truth.

To cite R' Micha Berger's reference to sneakers on Tisha B'av, I can
very easily understand that to Chazal, the phrases "leather shoes" and
"comfortable shoes" were synonymous. The idea of comfortable non-leather
shoes was probably beyond their imagination. But RBW's post was not
about shoes, it was about fish and beer. And this bothered me, because
these are not recent inventions. Chazal DID consider fish a delicacy,
as millennia of eating fish on Shabbos will attest. And they knew about
good beer too (though I can't come up with a citation to prove it).

So I worked in reverse. I started with some convenient "Hilchos 9
Av" sources, and figured it would be easy to find sources to allow
beer and fish, and then I'd look up the sources. It was easier than I
dreamed. "Moadei Yeshurun" by Rabbi Aaron Felder, page 131, pointed me
straight to the Aruch Hashulchan.

Then I saw Rav Shimon Eider's "Halachos of the Three Weeks". On page 6 he
too cites this Aruch Hashulchan and the reference to korbanos. But that's
Rav Eider's *second* explanation. Before that, he cites unnamed "poskim"
who say that "The reason for this minhag is that one experiences simcha
by eating meat and drinking wine." This matches what RBW had thought,
and I am curious who those "poskim" are.

Akiva Miller

Rambam, Shevitat Yom Tov 6:17

On 18 July 2018 at 05:40, Akiva Miller via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:he cites unnamed "poskim"
>
> who say that "The reason for this minhag is that one experiences simcha
> by eating meat and drinking wine." This matches what RBW had thought,
> and I am curious who those "poskim" are.
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On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 12:40:12AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Then I saw Rav Shimon Eider's "Halachos of the Three Weeks". On page 6 he
: too cites this Aruch Hashulchan and the reference to korbanos. But that's
: Rav Eider's *second* explanation. Before that, he cites unnamed "poskim"
: who say that "The reason for this minhag is that one experiences simcha
: by eating meat and drinking wine." This matches what RBW had thought,
: and I am curious who those "poskim" are.

But that would make the deprevation of simchah for the aveilus during
the 9 days on par with *aninus* even for a parent. I would find that
a shocking minhag.

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 11:40:41AM +0100, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote:
: Rambam, Shevitat Yom Tov 6:17

But that requires extrapolating that the reason for meat and wine that
the Rambam gives for Yom Tov is the inverse of the reason for refraining
from those two things on 9 beAv.

I am not sure those who are meiqlin on people who actually like fish or
milchig more to have those for their Yom Tov se'udah instead of meat
would tell them to avoid that food and have meat instead during the 9
days.

(Did the minhag of avoiding wine and meat shevu'ah shechal bo [he is
Sepharadi, after all] even exist in the Rambam's day?)

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

The question was:

" Before that, he cites unnamed "poskim"
: who say that "The reason for this minhag is that one experiences simcha
: by eating meat and drinking wine." This matches what RBW had thought,
: and I am curious who those "poskim" are.

The Rambam at the source quoted says unambiguously Ein Simcha Elah
BaBasar/Yayin. I'm not sure what greater correlation between simcha and
meat/wine you could wish for.



On 18 July 2018 at 11:38, Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 11:40:41AM +0100, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote:
> : Rambam, Shevitat Yom Tov 6:17
>
> But that requires extrapolating that the reason for meat and wine that
> the Rambam gives for Yom Tov is the inverse of the reason for refraining
> from those two things on 9 beAv.
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On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 04:35:14PM +0100, allan.en...@gmail.com wrote:
: The Rambam at the source quoted says unambiguously Ein Simcha Elah
: BaBasar/Yayin. I'm not sure what greater correlation between simcha and
: meat/wine you could wish for.

Saying that simchah requires basar veyayin doesn't mean that a lack of
simchah requires omitting basar veyayin. Or more significantly, that
this particular level of aveilus has that requirement.

(Also, saying that basar veyahin are necessary for simchah doesn't mean
they are sufficient for it. So YT  would need need BvY for simchas YT, but
even with BvY we could still avoid simchah at this time of year. We do
create a somber mood in other ways. But getting back to the previous
paragraph...)

As proof, an example I mentioned already -- shiv'ah for a parent. Basar
veyayin are allowed. In fact, I would be surprised if 9 beAv mandated
a greater distancing from simchah than shiv'ah. Not ruling out the
possibility, but surprised.

It would make 9 beAv more like aninus, except without the peturim from
other mitzvos asei caused by the chiyuv of qevurah.

So, I would want a maqor for specifically the question RAM asked -- who
are the posqim who say that our 9 days (or shevu'ah shechal bo) diet
is to avoid simchah?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Parashas Devarim is always read on Shabbos Chazon, the Shabbos
right before Tisha b'Av, when we mourn the destruction of the Bais
Hamikdash. This the ONLY Shabbos where the word Eicha appears in both
the Torah as well as the Haftarah portion.

The verse in the Torah portion that begins with Eichah (1:12) is chanted
in the mournful tune of Megillas Eichah used on Tisha B'Av, (unless the
Moshiach comes between now and Saturday evening).

In the Haftarah, the other eicha appears in verse 21 in the disturbing
words of Isaiah: Eicha hai'ta lezona, kirya ne'emana! (How has the city
which was faithful has become a harlot)!

That is not the only connection between Tisha bAv and our Parasha. The
second Temple was destroyed because of sinas chinam, unwarranted,
inappropriate and uncalled for hatred of others (Yuma 9b). Moshe taught
us that even if we are about to attack our enemy, we must first make an
attempt at peace -- even if we are convinced it is doomed to fail. How
much more so(!) must we try to patch things up among ourselves. Need I
say more?


[Email #2.]

We are approaching the saddest day of the year. The Book read on this
most mournful holiday is "Eicha" (Lamentations) spelled aleph, yud, chof,
hay. The numerical value of Eicha is coincidentally 36, which is double
chai. Thus the prediction that Tisha B'Av will some day become a joyous
holiday may very well be hidden in the word "Eicha."

The Talmud (Brachot 32b) teaches that when the Temple was destroyed,
all the gates of heaven were closed -- except for one. That is the gate
of tears. This Tisha B'Av, we must remember that the tears we shed for
the destruction are precisely those tears which bring about redemption
and ultimately double chai.

Often, the term "Eicha," 'How?' -- captures the manner by which certain
experiences defy our comprehension. Unable to account for the utter
devastation, the precipitous decline of a once populous city into a
desolate ruin, Jeremiah can only announce his wonderment (How, could
this have happened?!). It is perhaps the best and only way to capture
the depth of the suffering and scope of the tragedy. Any other response
would belittle and minimize the events.

Yet the Midrash informs us that this term was employed by two other
prophets -- under very different conditions. Moses declared, "How
('Eicha')" can I sustain the burden of leading such an overwhelming
nation?, and for his part, Isaiah scolded the nation by remarking,
"How ('Eicha')" could a city of honesty and integrity deteriorate into
a center of prostitution and deceit?

To underscore the succession between these three occurrences of the term
"Eicha," the Midrash comments that Moses witnessed the Jews during their
triumphant moments and recited, 'Eicha?';
Isaiah saw them during their degenerate period and recited, 'Eicha?';
and Jeremiah encountered them during their tragic torment and recited
the same term.

Their message is that Jewish history -- at every stage -- can only be
described with the term "Eicha."
As a nation of God, we are not subject to the conventional terms and
conditions of nature and history. Our development does not adhere to
classic national patterns. As Jews, our history does not conform to the
conditions of ration. Moses, Isaiah, and Jeremiah each grasped this
condition, at various, distinct stages of Jewish history. They each
responded with the only word capable of capturing this phenomenon --
"Eicha?"

1) Why do we eat a hard-boiled egg for the Seudah Hamafseket? The egg
has two symbols: The round shape reminds us of a sign of the cycle
of life. Also, the egg is the only food which gets harder the more
it is cooked -- a symbol of the Jewish people's ability to withstand
persecution.

2) Before the fast is broken, it is customary to say Kiddush Lavana.


 Alas For Those Who Are Gone And Are No More!    Eleazar b. Jose  Talmud:   Sanhedrin, 111a 

Concerning our previous discussion of the treatment of Jerusalem in the
kinnot.
One that is different is Rihal "Tzion ha lo Tishali"
For a discussion of this piyut see

https://www.thelehrhaus.com/timely-thoughts/this-9th-of-av-do-we-sing-with-yehudah-ha-levi-or-on-account-of-yehudah-ha-levi/?utm_source=email&;utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=july19_jaffe&utm_content=link

A portion is

While this *Kinah* is similar to other *Kinot* in its use of midrashic
principles, there are other aspects of it which make it unique. Few of the
*Kinot* describe what Jerusalem was like before its destruction, and even
fewer do so using exaggerated, dramatic, or poetic language. This song, on
the other hand, uses a vast array of literary techniques and elements to
capture the real-world greatness of Jerusalem. The short poem is replete
with metaphors capturing the awesome nature of Jerusalem in vivid,
accessible terminology that appeals to the physical senses. It creates an
idyllic, almost ?larger than life? depiction of Jerusalem and Israel.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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RBW:
> 
> Is there any concept of extending the basic minhagim restrictions of the 
> nine days like no meat or no wine to other "fancy" type foods?

See BB 60b

David Riceman

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 12:03:15PM -0400, I shared an article on Torah
Musings by R Gidon Rothstein
<https://www.torahmusings.com/2018/07/picking-and-choosing-poskim>:
...
: That's even true of the debates between Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel.
: While we today assume we (almost) always follow Beit Hillel, Eruvin 6b
: allows following either. The Gemara there criticizes those who always
: adopt the lenient view of two (such a person is a rasha, an evildoer)
: or the stringent (a kesil, a fool). On the next page, R. Shizvi permits
: following a leniency of Beit Shammai on one issue and of Beit Hillel on
: another as long as the two rulings do not contradict.

Rabbi Shizvi was a student of Rav Elazar ben Azaryah.

Meaning he could have been speaking at a time when the bas qol's
"vehalakhah keBeis Hillel" wasn't yet a rule.

On the other hand, Rabbi Tarfon was scolded for being machmir like
Beis Shammai on taking "beshkhbekho" as not only a time, but a
posture. (Berakhs 1:3)

    Said Rabbi Tarfon: I was once traveling on the road, and I reclined
    to recite [Shema] like the words of Beis Shammai, and I put myself
    in danger because of bandits.
    They said to him: It is appropriate for you to have made youself
    chayav, because you violated the word of Beis Hillel.

And R' Tarfon was an older contemporary of R' Shizvi!

: The rules just stated are for those of us who are not competent halachic
: authorities in our own right. A competent Torah scholar has every
: right to investigate an issue and rule on disputes that have not yet
: been firmly decided one way or other, as long as his lenient rulings
: do not place him in self-contradiction

Even for himself?

Which tanna was it who was an expert in mar'os, but his wife went to
someone else for mar'os because they were afraid of the objectivity of
his pesaq? (I think it's a Y-mi, but without being able to remember
even the name, I don't know how to search for it.)

:                                        [R. Stern does not elaborate,
: but he means such as ruling like Beit Hillel or Beit Shammai before a
: principle was laid down; today, that would likely include not ruling
: against Shulchan Aruch, but might include deciding about current issues
: on which even greater Torah scholars were still in disagreement].

I assume you mean that loosely. We hold like one of the nosei keilim
over the SA quite frequently.

Our fealty to the SA seems more to the order of: If you want to disagree
with the SA, you have to really prove your point. Rather than treating
is as actually binding.

In fact, in practice, the real line between acharon and rishon is between
those who have to justify ruling against the SA, and those one can use
for that justification.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, Jul 05, 2018 at 12:55:56PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: The Mishna Brurah in Hilchot Beit Knesset often uses the terminology
: "Lev Beit Din Matneh Aleiyhem" (see for ex. S"A 154:13:52) to explain
: why some usage that logically should not be allowed is allowed anyway.
: 
: My general take is that it means society (TBD) has changed its mind (in
: an internally non quantifiable manner over time) as to the definition
: of "generally accepted" communal rules of the road....

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 09:55:39AM -0400, M Cohen via Avodah wrote:
: I hear... but certainly the mashmaut of the phrase indicates daas BEIS DIN
: is the determining factor (perhaps based on communal standards), not "Lev
: hamon am Matneh Aleiyhem.

Which is why I would suggest a variant of RJR's proposal... Society
changed over time to require beis din to readjust the din. After all,
norms are part of the metzi'us that has to be factored into pesaq.

: The mishnah zevachim 4:6 uses similar language (tanai beis din) which
: clearly means an enactment of beis din

Where it says, "for it is a tenai beis din that ein hamachashavah holekhes
ela achar ha'oveid." R Yosi rules that even if the person bringing the
qorban has none of the motives for a qorban in mind, it's still kosher.
Because the court stipulates that it is not his intent that matters,
but that of the kohein does the avodah.

The gemara on Zevachim 2b quotes this mishnah and explains that the tenai
beis din is not to announce intent at all, lest someone say something
that renders the qorban shelo lishmah.

I can see the probability of the risk changing as society does, and
therefore when incorrect motive became sufficiently common to warrant
this avoidance, they made a tenai BD.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 04:27:17PM -0400, Henry Topas via Avodah wrote:
: In parshat Pinchas, the daughters of Tzelaphchad bring a taynah to Moshe...

: In parshat Massei, at the end of sefer Bamdibar, the family of Gilad ben
: Machir ben Menashe finds what might appear to be a grey area in the "psak"...

: I have looked at those meforshim I have available to me and do not find
: anyone asking why the first psak (in Pinchas) does not already cover the
: situation raised in Massei.  In short, I cannot recall another situation
: where following the first time when Moshe approaches Hashem for guidance,
: he is forced to go back a second time.

How many times does the Torah record Moshe asking Hashem for a pesaq?
I can only recall Benos Tzelfchad and Pesach Sheini. With such a small
sample set... Maybe it fits the system for Hashem to only give each
detail as it is needed, requiring multiple questions. But the other time
this came up at all, there was no later consequence forcing a second
question.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

RET:

> 
> We have been taught that the essence of tisha baav is the destruction of
> the Temple(s). Nevertheless, Megilat Eicha barely has a mention of the
> destruction of the Temple.  The emphasis of Eicha is the destruction of the
> city of Jerusalem and the tragedy of its inhabitants. No mention of the
> lack of sacrifices etc.

See Hagigah 27b ?kal vahomer mimizbeah hazahav?.  Poshei Yisrael are more important than the mizbeah, and the megillah is accentuating the anguish.

David Riceman

SinAs ChiNom is often translated as - gratuitous hatred, means hatred
without good reason; uncalled for.
We often use the imagery of Kamtza and his mate Bar K to create and shape
the definition of SinAs ChiNom

I wonder however, if it does not embrace something more subtle.
When in one's car, warm and dry, on a rainy windy day, and in a hurry, it
is too easy to overlook the discomfort of pedestrians.
Why do we tend to inconvenience pedestrians, acting in ways we would never
dream of, if we knew it was someone we love or even just know peripherally,
or our beloved Rosh Yeshivah for example?

This is not hatred, it is dismissive. We've programmed ourselves to not see
the humanity, the Tzelem Elokim of others who are outside our orbit.

The well known RaMBaM (I believe not generally known to be from the RaMBaM
and more so from his Moreh) that one does not act with the same attitude
when in the presence of the king, or in this case there rush Yeshuvah.

I would translate SinAs ChiNom as trampling upon others, not out of hatred
but them just not being relevant.
For example, not putting one's Sefarim away, slopping one's drink on the
table or floor - it wont happen at home but seems to be standard in the
Beis HaMedrash, as is using one's foot to push open a door.

Perhaps the episode with Kam and BarKamtza is not so extreme to illustrate
the example and the intensity of the hatred, as SinChin is with far less,
rather that terrible horrible unforgiveable event is there to emphasise
that even so the Rabbis remained silent.
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