Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 70

Mon, 18 Jun 2018

• 1. Re: The uniqueness of Moshe's nevua (H Lampel)
• 2. Eretz Yisroel, Zionism, and Medinas Yisroel in the Philosophy of RSRH (Prof. Levine)
• 3. bli neder? (Rich, Joel)
• 4. changing paradigms? (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Eretz Yisroel, Zionism, and Medinas Yisroel in the Philosophy of RSRH (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: bli neder? (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: Eretz Yisroel, Zionism, and Medinas Yisroel in the Philosophy of RSRH (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: bli neder? (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Eretz Yisroel, Zionism, and Medinas Yisroel in the Philosophy of RSRH (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: bli neder? (Ben Waxman)
• 11. Re: Eretz Yisroel, Zionism, and Medinas Yisroel in the Philosophy of RSRH (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: bli neder? (Joshua Meisner)
• 13. Referring to "the holy month of Ramadan" (Micha Berger)
• 14. Pri Chadash - Cherem? (Ben Waxman)
• 15. Toen in Shulchan Aruch (Henry Topas)
• 16. Re: Pri Chadash - Cherem? (Zev Sero)
• 17. machloquet - good or bad (Ben Waxman)

On 6/14/2018 8:17 AM, avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
> Tue, 12 Jun 2018 16:31:50 -0400 From: Micha Berger<mi...@aishdas.org>
> ...who wrote the last 8 pesuqim of the Torah? If it was Yehoshua, then
> we are left with two possibilities:
>
> - The Meshekh Chokhmah ...
>
> - A potential resolution is that the 8 pesuqim are Torah, dictated by HQBH.
>    Which would imply that once in his life Yehoshua recieved Moshe-style
>    nevu'ah. ...
Another possibility: Hashem dictated the last pesukim about Moshe's 
death to Moshe beforehand, even before Moshe ascended the mountain, and 
Moshe dictated them to Yehoshua, who did not write them down until after 
Moshe's death. Thus, all the Torah, to the last letter, was revealed to 
Moshe, but it was Yehoshua who put the last pesukim in writing.

Zvi Lampel

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At 08:17 AM 6/14/2018, Ben Waxman wrote:

>1) Maybe giving them money is helping them do something which you
>regularly complain about - chareidim not being able to support themselves.
>2)? There are all sorts of huge mitzvot that people in chul do. That
>isn't the point.? The point is ""We must do whatever is possible to
>further Mitzvot observance and prevent desecration of the Holy Land" -
>what does that mean?

I am going to give you an answer that I know you 
will not like and will dismiss out of hand,  but IMO, it is the truth.

Many years ago I asked Rabbi Dovid Kronglass, 
ZT"L, who was the Mashgiach of Yeshivas Ner 
Yisroel for many years, about moving to Eretz 
Yisroel. After all, I said, Orthodox Jews are 
interested in doing mitzvahs, and one can 
certainly do more mitzvahs in Israel. He 
responded by pointing out that the additional 
mitzvahs that one can do in Israel are only of 
rabbinical origin at this time. Furthermore, he 
went on, one has to keep in mind the following.

The land of Israel has a special Kedushah 
(holiness). Therefore, if one does a mitzvah 
there, one gets more reward than if one does the 
exact same mitzvah here. However, if one does 
something wrong, G-D forbid, in Israel, it is 
much worse than if one commits the same wrong 
deed here. "You just don't go to Israel," he told 
me. "You have to be on the right spiritual level before you go."

While reciting the Shema twice a day we say, 
?Beware lest your heart be seduced and you turn 
astray? And you will swiftly be banished from the 
goodly land which G-d gives you.?

Thus it is clear to me that one must be on the 
appropriate spiritual level to live in Eretz 
Yisroel. Encouraging those who are not on this 
level to settle in Eretz Yisroel was and is 
perhaps a mistake. This is a radical statement, 
and many will react strongly to it. However, is 
it possible that part of the reason for what is 
going on in Israel today is a result of the fact 
that the vast majority of Jews living in Israel 
are not properly observant, and the statement 
quoted in Shema is being, G-d forbid, fulfilled?

I am not the one to judge anyone else, but each 
person should look in the mirror and ask 
themselves if they are sure that they 
are  spiritually elevated enough to live in Eretz 
Yisroel. As Reb Dovid said, "You just don't go to Israel."

YL


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We know as a general rule that the advice is given not to take on a
stringency without saying bli neder. The reason usually given is that
if one does not say it, it becomes a requirement to continue keeping
that stringency.

Question - is the reward that one receives for doing the stringency
greater if one takes it on as a requirement vs. saying bli neder?

KT
Joel Rich

The more I learn Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Brurah the more I understand
the Maharshal's opposition to codification vs. relearning the basic
sources to obtain the clearest understanding possible of Chazal's
underlying theories for extrapolation to new cases (each iteration away
from the primary source can cloud fine points, or Godel's incompleteness
theorem at play?).

I also see much more of the implicit sociological assumptions made
over time (and wonder how we define the community [e.g., town, city,
continent...] and time [every decade, exile...] that we measure). Two
examples:

1) S"A O"C 153:12 (MB:76) discusses an individual who had a stipulation
with a community to build a Beit Knesset (synagogue), it stays with him and
his family but it's not transferable. Why not? "Mistavra" (it's logical)
that that's what the community had in mind unless specifically stipulated
differently at origination (me -- who measured? How?)

2) S"A O"C 153:18 (MB:95) concerning a private object (e.g., Menorah)
used by the synagogue. Originally, the assumption was they became kodesh
once used, however, "now" it's assumed that they remain totally private
(as if this were the original stipulation). So how, when, and where
did this change? Were the first people who acted this way sinners,
but enough sinners makes it OK?

KT
Joel Rich

Yes we have heard this answer before, several times. Putting aside its 
multiple problems, it is basically rejecting the paper you linked, given 
that the paper's author supports the state albeit with several large 
reservations. You can't say that the aliya of the vast majority of 
people to Israel is a mistake and support the state at the same time.

Ben

On 6/14/2018 3:47 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> The land of Israel has a special Kedushah (holiness). Therefore, if 
> one does a mitzvah there, one gets more reward than if one does the 
> exact same mitzvah here. However, if one does something wrong, G-D 
> forbid, in Israel, it is much worse than if one commits the same wrong 
> deed here. "You just don't go to Israel," he told me. "You have to be 
> on the right spiritual level before you go.

I recall a Gemara that says that taking on a vow is like building a 
bamah. Keeping the vow is like bringing a korban on the bamah.
 ?Ben

On 6/14/2018 3:19 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> We know as a general rule that the advice is given not to take on a
> stringency without saying bli neder. The reason usually given is that
> if one does not say it, it becomes a requirement to continue keeping
> that stringency.
>
> Question - is the reward that one receives for doing the stringency
> greater if one takes it on as a requirement vs. saying bli neder?
>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 09:47:54AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Many years ago I asked Rabbi Dovid Kronglass, ZT"L, who was the
: Mashgiach of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel for many years, about moving to
: Eretz Yisroel...

: The land of Israel has a special Kedushah (holiness). Therefore, if one
: does a mitzvah there, one gets more reward than if one does the exact
: same mitzvah here. However, if one does something wrong, G-D forbid,
: in Israel, it is much worse than if one commits the same wrong deed
: here. "You just don't go to Israel," he told me. "You have to be on the
: right spiritual level before you go."

This idea is also in Vayo'el Moshe.

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> I recall a Gemara that says that taking on a vow is like building a bamah. Keeping the vow is like bringing a korban on the bamah.
>  Ben
?1?/???
Which raises a question I?ve been thinking about lately.  When the Gemara
uses anything but assur, mutar (maybe tov)or chayav, what is it trying to
tell us by the analogy used? Is it relative weight or just a ancillary
teaching for a teachable moment?
Kt
Joel rich
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On 14/06/18 18:07, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 09:47:54AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> : Many years ago I asked Rabbi Dovid Kronglass, ZT"L, who was the
> : Mashgiach of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel for many years, about moving to
> : Eretz Yisroel...
> 
> : The land of Israel has a special Kedushah (holiness). Therefore, if one
> : does a mitzvah there, one gets more reward than if one does the exact
> : same mitzvah here. However, if one does something wrong, G-D forbid,
> : in Israel, it is much worse than if one commits the same wrong deed
> : here. "You just don't go to Israel," he told me. "You have to be on the
> : right spiritual level before you go."
> 
> This idea is also in Vayo'el Moshe.

It's much earlier than that.  It's a Tosfos (Rabbenu Chaim, quoted in 
Tosfos, Kesubos 110b, sv Hu Omer).

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

I'd guess the latter - the Gemara is telling us you have to decide for 
yourself and that while the Gemara will give values and weight, it? 
leaves the final choice up to you.

On 6/14/2018 11:18 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> When the Gemara uses anything but assur, mutar (maybe tov)or chayav,
> what is it trying to tell us by the analogy used? Is it relative
> weight or just a ancillary teaching for a teachable moment?

At 06:07 PM 6/14/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 09:47:54AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>: Many years ago I asked Rabbi Dovid Kronglass, ZT"L, who was the
>: Mashgiach of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel for many years, about moving to
>: Eretz Yisroel...
>
>: The land of Israel has a special Kedushah (holiness). Therefore, if one
>: does a mitzvah there, one gets more reward than if one does the exact
>: same mitzvah here. However, if one does something wrong, G-D forbid,
>: in Israel, it is much worse than if one commits the same wrong deed
>: here. "You just don't go to Israel," he told me. "You have to be on the
>: right spiritual level before you go."
>
>This idea is also in Vayo'el Moshe.

If so,  then why are there Satmar Chassodim living in Israel?  Are 
they all on a high spiritual level?  And could it be that the Satmar 
Rebbe left Israel,  for this reason?

YL
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On 6/14/2018 3:19 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> We know as a general rule that the advice is given not to take on a
> stringency without saying bli neder. The reason usually given is that
> if one does not say it, it becomes a requirement to continue keeping
> that stringency.

> Question -- is the reward that one receives for doing the stringency
> greater if one takes it on as a requirement vs. saying bli neder?

On Jun 14, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Ben Waxman wrote:
> I recall a Gemara that says that taking on a vow is like building a
> bamah. Keeping the vow is like bringing a korban on the bamah.

The implication of this sugya is that given that one has made a neder,
it is better not to keep it than to keep it. Clearly, it is not
suggesting that one violate the neder but rather that one be matir it
before a chacham. The meforshim provide different reasons why this
is the case -- e.g., because the neder was made out of anger that would
hopefully subside or because the neder is characteristic of ga'avah --
but a chumra taken on because a person perceives a need for a s'yag or
similar reasons (or, for that matter, a neder bish'as tzarah) may not
be what the gemara is referring to.

Going back to RJR's question, to provide a few data points, while on the
one hand offering a korban without making a neder is assur, one tanna
used to be makdish his korban only after he brought it to the mikdash
to avoid the possibility of stumbling. Not sure if these cases can
be translated into nidrei issur.

Josh

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 11:18am EDT, Prof. Levine wrote on Areivim:
: What about referring to the "holy month of Ramadan"?  Aren't their
: restrictions regarding what a Jew is allowed to do when it comes to
: non-Jewish holidays?

Interesting question... Yes, if Moslems are aku"m. But Islam is
monotheistic. In fact, they're more pedantic about it than the Torah
requires. E.g. Many Moslems believe that the Torah's use of "Yad Hashem"
et al even acknowledging they are meant as metaphors shows Shaitan's
alleged corruption of the text.

So, it's not yom eideihem in the normal sense.

For that matter, one might even argue that many versions of Ramadan
observance are actually qadosh (in our sense of the word). They fast
to learn self-discipline and empathy for those who are less fortunate,
they give sadaqah to the poor (I'm bet you can guess that Arabic) and
there is a point of having a nightly meal, iftar, in fellowship with
the broader community, not alone or as a nuclear family. All values
the Beris Noach would want them to be fostering.

So, the previous intentionally provocative paragraph aside, is there
really a problem talking about Ramadan or referring to it as they do,
as "the holy month of"?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I am reading a booklet by Rav Yitzhaq Yosef on the rules of giving psak. 
In one section he briefly mentioned that Chachmei Mitzrayim considered 
putting the Pri Chadash in cherem because he disagreed with the Rishonim 
on some issue. Can anyone flesh this out? What was the issue and with 
whom did the PC disagree?

Ben

Can someone point me to the proper source for the role of a toen in a din Torah pls?

Also any source for when did the role of a toen become common practice.

Thank you and kol tuv,

HT

Sent from my iPhone

On 17/06/18 15:09, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> I am reading a booklet by Rav Yitzhaq Yosef on the rules of giving psak. 
> In one section he briefly mentioned that Chachmei Mitzrayim considered 
> putting the Pri Chadash in cherem because he disagreed with the Rishonim 
> on some issue. Can anyone flesh this out? What was the issue and with 
> whom did the PC disagree?

The issue was the way he wrote about gedolei haposkim, especially the 
Bet Yosef.

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1640&;pgnum=250




-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

Summary of a talk given on Shabbat and then my commentary:

According to the Rambam, machloquet is a fashla, something we don't 
want. It started when students didn't properly learn from their 
teachers. Had they done so, Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai would not have 
had so many disagreements.

Rav Kook and Rebbe Nachman had a much more positive approach to 
machloquet. According to RK, when say that talmidei chachamim bring 
peace to the world, it is because they know how to argue with someone 
yet respect him and his opinion. A talmid chacham knows how to be 
inclusive, how to allow for and even want other opinions.

According to RN, machloquet is a reenactment of Creation. God created 
the world through tzimmzum, allowing space for others. When there is one 
opinion only, that opinion fills the entire space so to speak. When 
someone else comes up with a different opinion, the first person has to 
contract to allow room for the new idea. This in turn allows for even 
more opinions.

Ad kan the class.

Today we don't do machloquet very well or at least we struggle with it. 
We try and either destroy the other side or we say that the other 
position doesn't really exist.

This week a rav made a statement about Rav Lichtenstein tz'l and his 
position regarding (a very minor) women's issue. The easiest thing to do 
if one wanted to know RL's opinion about something is to pick up the 
phone and ask his sons, his daughter, an extremely close talmid. Instead 
the rav simply heard something and made a conclusion. When he was shown 
that his conclusion was incorrect, he pontificated that RL really didn't 
accept the more liberal position, he simply gave in to pressure.

Occam's razor says that if RL said something and did something, it is 
because RL believed that to be the right thing to do. There is no need 
to come up with any explanation. Simply accept that there is a 
machloquet in the matter.

Similarly, there is a mechina whose rosh yeshiva said things about 
women's role in society which people in the left wing MO world don't 
accept. No one says that anyone needs to send their kid there, but to 
try and work to shut down the mechina? You can't accept that someone, 
who BTW probably agrees with the LW on a whole bunch of other subjects, 
differs with you? You want to shut them down? Come on people, get a grip.



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