Volume 36: Number 57
Wed, 09 May 2018
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 23:05:25 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] Lag Baomer
>>>
In Ashkenaz shuls it used to be the custom (and probably still is in some
places) that Kabbolas Shabbos was said from the shulchan where the Torah is
leined rather that from where the Shatz normally davened for the Amud.
This is to show that Kabbolas Shabbos was an addition to the davening.
>>>>
This is the universal practice in Ashkenazi shuls in Israel. >>
Just to be sure I assume Saul meant Ashkenazi as opposed to edot mizrach.
In terms of nusach both nusach sefard and nusach ashkenaz have this minhag
in the places I have seen
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 2
From: Simon Montagu
Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 01:31:28 +0300
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Lag Baomer
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:05 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> >>>
> In Ashkenaz shuls it used to be the custom (and probably still is in some
> places) that Kabbolas Shabbos was said from the shulchan where the Torah is
> leined rather that from where the Shatz normally davened for the Amud.
> This is to show that Kabbolas Shabbos was an addition to the davening.
> >>>>
>
> This is the universal practice in Ashkenazi shuls in Israel. >>
>
> Just to be sure I assume Saul meant Ashkenazi as opposed to edot mizrach.
> In terms of nusach both nusach sefard and nusach ashkenaz have this minhag
> in the places I have seen
>
In Sepharadic batei kenesset that I have seen, there is a different but
parallel minhag: Kabbalat Shabbat is recited by the kahal all together or
by individuals taking turns section by section with nobody standing up and
acting as Shatz. The Shatz typically begins either at Bame Madlikin or only
at Kaddish before Barechu
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Message: 3
From: David Riceman
Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 20:28:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] melucha (David Riceman)
> Me
>
>> How does this fit with Pesahim 112a al tadur b?ir sherasheha talmidei hahamim?
RZS:
>
> Very nicely. R Akiva's advice clearly refers to the askanim, those
> doing the actual work of administering the city, not to the chachamim
> who are to guide them.
Are there other examples of ?rosh? meaning subordinate? It's a surprising usage.
David Riceman
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Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 10:33:02 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] minhagim
A while ago there was a debate about gebrochs while some condemned the
minhag others defended it.
I suggest reading an article by Brown
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#search/hillel/1633fd7c1ed2a4a7
(4th on the list)
It is an English translation from his book on the Chazon Ish
Brown makes the argument that CI and much of litvishe gedolim in the recent
past
basically rejected minhagim as the practice of the masses. Only those
practices that can be
traced to the gemara or rishonim are acceptable. Even achronim except for a
select few don't count.
He further argues against the article by Haym Soloveitchik and claims that
the attitude of CI was already present in Russia before WWII and even
communities not affected by modernism. It was basically an attitude of
elitism that only gedolim count.
OTOH Hungarians led by Chasam Sofer strongly fought to preserve mighagim of
the kehilla. This was even more stressed by the Chassidic community. In
fact what distinguishes one chassidic group from the other ones is their
unique set of minhagim most of them fairly recent (last 100-200 years at
most)
His conclusion is that both approaches have their pluses and minuses in
terms of protecting their communities from modernism.
I conclude that the debate over gebrochs mirrors the debate between
litvaks and chassidim over the value of "recent" minhagim.
Again see the above article for more details
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 5
From: Isaac Balbin
Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 14:46:46 +1000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Lag Baomer & Rashbi
See also <http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&;id=62737>
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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 05:53:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Lag Baomer
On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 01:31:28AM +0300, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
: In Sepharadic batei kenesset that I have seen, there is a different but
: parallel minhag: Kabbalat Shabbat is recited by the kahal all together or
: by individuals taking turns section by section with nobody standing up and
: acting as Shatz. The Shatz typically begins either at Bame Madlikin or only
: at Kaddish before Barechu
At the Sepharadi minyan I frequent Fri night (in the US, mostly Syrian),
everyone chants everything together. No shatz, and no one taking the lead
even section by section. As per the first clause above. Somoene takes
the lead for Bameh Madliqin from their seat. Chazan starts at pre-Qaddish
material for Arbit.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 08:12:47 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Lag Baomer
On 08/05/18 18:31, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
>
> In Sepharadic batei kenesset that I have seen, there is a different but
> parallel minhag: Kabbalat Shabbat is recited by the kahal all together
> or by individuals taking turns section by section with nobody standing
> up and acting as Shatz. The Shatz typically begins either at Bame
> Madlikin or only at Kaddish before Barechu
In other words, the same as pesukei dezimra, or the ashre and uva
letzion before mincha.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 8
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Wed, 09 May 2018 19:59:33 +0200
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Lag Baomer
At the Yemenite place I go to Friday night, everyone chants Kabbalat
Shabbat together (same tune, every week, for the whole thing). An
elderly person will get the kavod of saying the first line of Lecha Dodi
out loud, but the rest is sung together. After Lecha Dodi, they say four
lines from Shir HaShirim and then one person leads them in a "Bar
Yochai" song (this kavod is auctioned off). After that, all together for
BeMah Madlilin and Mizmor L'yom Hashabbat.
On 5/9/2018 11:53 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> At the Sepharadi minyan I frequent Fri night . . .
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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 08:21:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] melucha (David Riceman)
On 08/05/18 20:28, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
>> Me
>>
>>> How does this fit with Pesahim 112a al tadur b?ir sherasheha talmidei hahamim?
>
> RZS:
>>
>> Very nicely. R Akiva's advice clearly refers to the askanim, those
>> doing the actual work of administering the city, not to the chachamim
>> who are to guide them.
>
> Are there other examples of ?rosh? meaning subordinate? It's a surprising usage.
Certainly in more recent usage it's not at all surprising; in every
Jewish community the Rosh Hakahal was the layman who did the work, not
the rav who guided him. Ditto for the Resh Galuta, who (if he were a
yerei shamayim) would be expected to defer to the chachamim. But at
any rate there can't be any doubt that R Akiva is referring to the
full-time administrators, because his whole point is that if they're to
do their job properly they can't be learning all day.
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 08:27:09 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] minhagim
On 09/05/18 03:33, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>
> I suggest reading an article by Brown
> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#search/hillel/1633fd7c1ed2a4a7
> (4th on the list)
Linking to gmail isn't helpful unless the article is already in ones
gmail account (assuming one even has one). Even then it's unlikely to
be fourth on everyone's list. Do you have a link to somewhere on the web?
--
Zev Sero A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 11
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 19:54:22 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] The Torah Attitude Toward Gentiles, Animals, and
Many years ago when my two oldest grandsons were in elementary school in
yeshiva, they began to speak in a derogatory manner abut non-Jews. They
had heard these things from their fellow students. Their father, my oldest
son, and I made it clear to them that this was not the appropriate way to
speak about human beings who were created by Ha Shem with a neshama.
Fortunately, they listened to us and changed their attitude.
No one is saying that one must be "buddy buddy" with gentiles, but they are to be treated with proper respect.
I have posted letter 11 of RSRH's 19 Letters at
http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/letter_11.pdf
While I suggest that everyone read the entire letter, below are some excerpts from it.
MISHPATIM. All these insights, however, are of value only if
you truly live your life according to what you, as man and
Yisraelite in God's world, with your God-given powers, have
recognized. The first requirement is, therefore, that you
practice justice:
-Respect every being in your surroundings, as well as
everything within yourself, as a creation of your God,
-Respect whatever is theirs as given to them by God or as
having been acquired according to Divinely sanctioned law. Let
them keep, or have, whatever they are entitled by right to call
their own; do not be a source of harm to -others!
-Respect every human being as your equal. Respect him,
his inner self as well as his outer garment-his body-and his
life) Respect his property, too, as a legal extension of his
body. Respect his claim to property or services that you have
to render to him, 1 properly measured or counted, as well as
his claim to compensation for harm done to his body or
property.
-Respect his right to know the truth and his right to
freedom, happiness, peace of mind,P honor and a peaceful
existence.
-Never abuse the frailty of his body, mind or heart/ and
never misuse your legal power over him.
The Chukkim require of you:
-respect for all that exists, as God's property: do not
destroy anything! do not misuse it! do not waste! use
everything wisely
-respect for all the species: their order was established by
God-do not intermingle them;u respect for all creatures: they
are servants in the household of Creation; v respect for the
feelings and instincts of animals;w respect for the human body,
even after the soul has departed;x respect for your own body:
maintain it, as it is the repository, messenger and instrument of
the spirit;
-limitation of your own instincts and animal-like actions:
subordinate them to God's Law, so that, truly human and
sanctified, they can help you attain the holy goal of mankind and
will not turn you into a mere animal;
-respect for your soul, when you nourish its tool, the
body: supply the body only with such nourishment that will
enable it to act as a pure and willing messenger of the world to
the spirit, and of the spirit to the world, rather than giving it
food that will induce sluggishness and sensuality;
-concealment and sublimation of the animal in you, rather
than according it too much respect and attention: only thus will
the conflict within you ultimately be resolved, and the animal in
you will also aspire only to the truly human;
-lastly, respect for your own person in its purest
expression-your power of speech.
In light of the above I simply cannot understand how some Torah sources can express a derogatory view of gentiles.
YL
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