Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 56

Tue, 08 May 2018

• 1. Lag B'Omer (Saul Mashbaum)
• 2. Dancing Around A Bonfire (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Rashbi (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Bow and Arrow on Lag B'Omer (Toby Katz)
• 5. Re: melucha (David Riceman)
• 6. Sacrificies (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: sacrifices (Marty Bluke)
• 8. Re: Rashbi (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: melucha (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Swordfish (Ari Zivotofsky)
• 11. Re: sacrifices (Zev Sero)
• 12. 3000 Year Old Mansion Implies a Sizable Malkhus Beis David (Micha Berger)

 RYL

>>>
In Ashkenaz shuls it used to be the custom (and probably still is in some
places) that Kabbolas Shabbos was said from the shulchan where the Torah is
leined rather that from where the Shatz normally davened for the Amud.
This is to show that Kabbolas Shabbos was an addition to the davening.
>>>>

This is the universal practice in Ashkenazi shuls in Israel.

Saul Mashbaum
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<< And, the first mention that the Peri Eitz Chaim's "yom simchas Rashbi"
is a day for our simchah is Chamdas Yamim. With the problem that raises.

You also insert your own explanation of "yom simchas Rashbi". It could,
after all, still be his yahrzeit, or as per your own rebbe (RMMS,
in a letter to R' Zevin; unforunately I don't have a mar'eh maqom)
that it was the day R' Aqiva started over with 5 talmidim -- thus,
Rashbi's simchah as one of those 5.  >>

Fore details about the printing error to give rise to the idead that Lag
Baomer is
Rashbi's yahrzeit see

http://seforim.blogspot.co.il/2011/05/

changing subjects one of the weirdest experiences I had was a bunch of
black coated Chevra kadisha
dancing about a grave in Bet Shemesh at 12 midnight with just a flashlight
for light

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<I  wonder. According to RMMS, Yom Simchas Rashbi is a logical consequence
of the end of the plague. R' Aqiva couldn't teach the whole generation
anymore; so he started teaching 5 new leaders,  >>

OTOH there is the gemara that when there was the dispute in Yavneh between
Rabban Gamliel and R. Yehoshua it was Rashbi that was involved. This story
took place many years before talmidim of R. Akiva (who was junior at that
time) died.
If so Rashbi was a known talmid many years before R. Akiva revived Torah
. As an aside other taananim survived the bar kochba wars including
talmidim of R, Yishmael

-- 
Eli Turkel
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In a message dated 5/6/2018 7:51:35 AM EST,
avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org writes:
From: "Professor L. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
> This got me to wondering why a bow and arrow are associated with Lag B"Omer.

> From https://goo.gl/kumYeX

>> One custom often mentioned in connection with Lag BaOmer, though it is
>> less common than formerly, is for the young students to play with bows
>> and arrows. It is remarkable that the day devoted to the memory of Rebbe
>> Shimon bar Yochai, who was so absorbed in Torah learning that he didn't
>> even take time for prayers, is marked by having the youngsters take a
>> break from their Torah studies.....

Torah sages and their students learned Torah secretly in the woods, hiding
from the Roman soldiers. They took bows and arrows with them and if they
were found in the woods, they would say they were out hunting. That's what
I was told when I was a little girl. I don't know if this is associated
with R' Akiva and his talmidim, or with R' ShBY. As a child I thought
the story was about young children and didn't realize until later that it
must have been adult students with bows and arrows in the woods. (Yes I
know Jews don't hunt for food or for sport, but maybe the Romans didn't
know that. Or the Jews could plausibly say they hunted for hides and fur.)

PS All my Areivims and Avodahs lately are deformed by great quantities
of question marks. If anyone knows how to stop this from happening,
please let me know.

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com

--

RMB:

> 3- R' Dovid Cohen's formulation is based on melukhah. When malkhus
> stopped, muich of the king's power fell to the Sanhedrin. When the
> Sanhdring stopped, rabbanim inherited much of their authority, or act
> as their sheluchim in abstentia. Therefore, we are obligated to make
> gedolim our communal leadership. (Nothing to do with asking Daas Torah on
> personal issues, which this model does not speak about.) Right or wrong,
> they are supposed to lead.
> 
> RYBS's hesped for R CO Grozhinsky, "HaTzitz vehaChoshen" was made before
> RYBS's split from Agudah. His thesis was that the same kohein gadol who
> carries "Qadosh Lashem" on the tzitz is the same one who carries the
> names of the shevatim on the choshen, and whose Urim veTumim is asked
> questions of dividing nachalah or whether to go to war. Sounds much like
> the same model.


> How does this fit with Pesahim 112a al tadur b?ir sherasheha talmidei hahamim?

David Riceman

Question:

During most of the years in the desert there were only 3 cohanim. However,
from most sacrifices a portion is given to a cohen. This is most difficult
for shelamim. During the years in the desert anyone who wanted to eat meat
had to bring the animal to as a sacrifice of which a portion was given to
the cohen. How could 3 cohanim eat all these portions from 600,000+
families of whom if only a tiny fraction ate meat (in addition to the man)
would result in hundreds

-- 
Eli Turkel

R' Zev Sero wrote on Areivim that Moshe retained the status of a Kohen
even after the 7 days of the miluim. It actually seems to be a machlokes
in Zevachim 102. The Gemara there has a discussion whether Moshe was
considered a Kohen and says k'tanay. Chachamim say, Moshe was a Kohen
only during the seven days of Milu'im (inauguration of the Mishkan);
others say, the Kehunah ceased only from Moshe's descendants, but he
was permanently a Kohen;

On 06/05/18 10:21, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> 
> OTOH there is the gemara?that when there was the dispute in Yavneh 
> between Rabban Gamliel and R. Yehoshua it was Rashbi that was involved. 

I've looked at all three disputes, in Rosh Hashana 25a, Bechoros 36a, 
and Berachos 27b, and I could not find any mention of R Shimon.


> This story took place many years before talmidim?of R. Akiva (who was 
> junior at that time) died.

On the contrary, R Akiva was very senior at the time of these disputes. 
In the mishna in Rosh Hashana he was one of the two who counseled R 
Yehoshua to obey R Gamliel's order, and in Berachos when R Gamliel was 
deposed he was one of only three candidates considered to replace him.


> If so Rashbi was a known talmid?many years before R. Akiva revived Torah 
> .?As an aside other taananim?survived the bar kochba?wars including 
> talmidim?of R, Yishmael

What have Bar Kochva or his wars got to do with any of this?

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On 06/05/18 20:58, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
> RMB:

>> 3- R' Dovid Cohen's formulation is based on melukhah. When malkhus
>> stopped, muich of the king's power fell to the Sanhedrin. When the
>> Sanhdring stopped, rabbanim inherited much of their authority, or act
>> as their sheluchim in abstentia. Therefore, we are obligated to make
>> gedolim our communal leadership. (Nothing to do with asking Daas Torah on
>> personal issues, which this model does not speak about.) Right or wrong,
>> they are supposed to lead.


> How does this fit with Pesahim 112a al tadur b?ir sherasheha talmidei hahamim?

Very nicely.  R Akiva's advice clearly refers to the askanim, those 
doing the actual work of administering the city, not to the chachamim 
who are to guide them.  There need to be askanim because the chachamim 
have no time for klal work; they're busy learning and will neglect it. 
So those who lack either the head or the bottom for full-time learning 
can be the administrators, and when they need guidance they will consult 
the chachamim.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>>From The Jewish Press
><www.jewishpress.com/judaism/halacha-hashkafa/is-swordfish-kosher/2018/04/19>,
>by RHSchachter, "Is Swordfish Kosher?", posted Apr 19th (5 Iyyar):
...
>   Because around 60-70 years ago, they asked Rabbi [Moshe] Tendler if
>   he could make a list of which fish are kosher and which aren't. Rabbi
>   Tender decided to list swordfish as a treife fish because he called
>   up an expert who told him scales on a swordfish are a different...
...
>"L'maaseh, the Conservatives were right on this issue..." Wow!

The attached has lots of relevant information.

[Attachment stored at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/razzSwordFishBDD2008.pdf>
-micha]

On 07/05/18 07:19, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> R' Zev Sero wrote on Areivim that Moshe retained the status of a Kohen
> even after the 7 days of the miluim. It actually seems to be a machlokes
> in Zevachim 102. The Gemara there has a discussion whether Moshe was
> considered a Kohen and says k'tanay. Chachamim say, Moshe was a Kohen
> only during the seven days of Milu'im (inauguration of the Mishkan);
> others say, the Kehunah ceased only from Moshe's descendants, but he
> was permanently a Kohen;

Thank you.  Note the context: Rav stated outright that Moshe was a cohen 
gadol, and the gemara cites this braisa to show his source, that he was 
ruling like the Yesh Omrim.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

From <https://www.livescience.com/62472-lost-biblical-kingdom-remains.html>.
What struck me is what appears to be the weakness of the objection --
some of the results are from a poor source, and even though they converge
with other results, we'll question the whole thing?

   Does This 3,000-Year-Old House Confirm King David's Lost Biblical
   Kingdom?
   By Owen Jarus, Live Science Contributor | May 3, 2018 02:50pm ET

   Archaeologists have discovered a sprawling, possibly 3,000-year-old
   house that suggests a biblical kingdom called the United Monarchy,
   ruled by King David and later Solomon according to the Hebrew Bible,
   actually existed.

   The archaeologists who excavated the house, at a site now called
   Tel Eton, in Israel, said in an article published online March 13 in
   the journal Radiocarbon that the date, design and size of the house
   indicates that a strong organized government existed at Tel Eton
   around 3,000 years ago. They added that this government may be the
   United Monarchy. The site is located in the central part of Israel
   in a region called the Shephalah.
...
   In their paper, Faust and Sapir argue that evidence supporting the
   existence of the United Monarchy is often not studied because of a
   problem they call the "old house effect."

   The site of Tel Eton, including the massive house, was destroyed by
   the Assyrians during the eighth century B.C. As such, the house held
   a vast amount of remains dating to that century, but relatively few
   remains that date to 3,000 years ago when the house was first built.

   This "old house effect" is a problem commonly seen in Israel and at
   archaeological sites in other countries, the archaeologists said.
   "Buildings and strata can exist for a few centuries, until they are
   destroyed, but almost all the finds will reflect this latter event,"
   wrote Faust and Sapir, noting that archaeologists need to be careful
   to dig down and find the oldest remains of the structures they are
   excavating so they don't miss remains that could provide clues to
   the United Monarchy.

   Israel Finkelstein, a professor at Tel Aviv University who has written
   extensively about the United Monarchy debate, expressed skepticism
   about the results.

   Two of the four samples used for radiocarbon dating are olive pits,
   which pose a problem, he said. "The single olive pits come from
   fills [material that accumulated on the surface of the floor before
   the floor broke apart]. They have no importance whatsoever [for]
   dating the building. At Megiddo, my dig, samples like this, single
   items/fills, are not being sent to the lab to be dated, because they
   enter bias into the dating system," Finkelstein said. "There is no
   connection whatsoever between the finds at Tel Eton and the biblical
   description of the United Monarchy."

   Faust told Live Science he expects that some archaeologists would be
   critical of the use of material found in the remains of the floors for
   radiocarbon dating. He noted that all the radiocarbon dates, those from
   the olive pits and from the charcoal, converge around 3,000 years. "The
   convergence of the dates suggest that we are on safe grounds," Faust
   said. He also noted that one of the charcoal samples is not from the
   floor but from the foundation deposit (the chalice), strengthening
   the conclusion that the house was built around 3,000 years ago.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 38th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
Fax: (270) 514-1507           promote harmony in life and relationships?


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